What's wrong with grapple?

[SteveC]

One part of the 3X rules that gets a lot of criticism is grappling. It seems to be even less popular than attacks of opportunity for a lot of different reasons. So what's wrong with it? And how do we fix it?

This isn't intended to be a "here's how 4E will change it" thread (I'd have posted in the 4E forum for that) but if you like the way Saga does things, well, say so!

Here's my thoughts on what's wrong:

Grapple is needlessly complicated. You make two rolls to get an opponent grappled, and unless you have a feat, they get an attack of opportunity which can negate your whole action. Then there are the rules for how grapples work: dex bonuses, attacking into a grapple, maintaining a grapple, what can you do when you're grappled as opposed to being pinned and so on.

Grapple is a "PC killer." A big monster with improved grapple grabs the party fighter. He's not getting out and he's likely doomed. Large monsters get a bonus to their rolls, and also get a bonus to strength that they pretty much can't fail to grapple with.

Once you grapple someone the choices you have for what to do with them are fairly uninteresting, and there aren't really classes or feats that let you do more interesting things.

I have some ideas on what I would do in this process, but what are your thoughts and ideas? Is the premise wrong, and is grapple fine as-is? Did I miss a whole series of other problems with it?

What do you think?

--Steve

 

[Morrus]

I disliked the rules so much that I rewrote them in a book:

http://enworld.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=23177&it=1&filters=0_0_0&manufacturers_id=87

And then wrote a sequel:

http://enworld.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=23285&it=1&filters=0_0_0&manufacturers_id=87

My basic take on it was to make it as "simple" as any other attack roll (one d20 roll), and to maintain the abstractness of the d20 combat system.

 

[Festivus]

Once I played with grapple a bit, I don't find it terribly confusing anymore. Sure it's a bit clunky and slow, and yes it's a PC killer, but hey, the purple worm needs some kind of mechanic for swallowing the fighter whole.

I find the whole spiked chain trip monkey mechanic to be much more of a show stopper than grapple rules in terms of bogging down things.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

I rewrote them based on the Exalted grapple system. Which if you recast in terms of d20 mechanics are actually both clear and swift.

Basically you have a grapple AB beside your regular AB, it's treated as an attack compared to reflex and their grapple defense(grapple AB+10). If you beat that you're considered to have one the grapple and can perform one of several options. The next round if you are maintaining the grapple the other party can do the same thing to attempt to break the grapple or impose their own grapple.

 

[Victim]

Basically, grappling tends to trivialize other combat attributes besides those relating to grapple. Characters can undertake only an extremely limited set of actions, most of which don't use their normal stuff (and many of them are opposed grapple checks). That many big monsters (or Enlarged/Poly'd/etc characters) can basically autowin grapple checks just makes matters even more binary - either you have an autoescape/avoid grapple option in the first place, or you're stuck.

And that works both ways - one of my characters was a grappling fiend. As we increased in levels and reown, I could grapple less and less. Either the monster was too big for him to win against, or it was a PC type who'd be screwed and consequently had Freedom of Movement or something.

 

[Doug McCrae]

It's really hard to find out how a monster grapples and this is bad because many of them are extremely keen on it. You have to look up lots of separate sections in the MM. A key rule, that a monster can normally only attack with one of its natural weapons, is hidden in the Rake description.

 

[Doug McCrae]

That many big monsters (or Enlarged/Poly'd/etc characters) can basically autowin grapple checks just makes matters even more binary - either you have an autoescape/avoid grapple option in the first place, or you're stuck.

The binary issue is a problem throughout D&D. Protection From Evil is up = totally safe from a vampire's gaze. Prot Evil goes down = totally boned. And so on and so forth for a great many spells. No threat/deadly threat. No inbetween. That pleasing middle ground where fights are close but the PCs win, which of all things D&D should be *designed and built* to achieve, is strangely hard to find.

 

[DrunkonDuty]

I like your version HeavenShallBurn.
What you base the GAB on?

 

[Jack7]

What's wrong with grapple?

I think it's probably something to do with the explosive mixture being used, or the tensile strength of the line. Batman solved this problem long ago. His grapples will go a really long way, and can catch onto most anything, just in time. We should ask him.

If that ain't it, it's probably the handgrips being used. Try going from bottom up to inside out next time. That works for me.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

I like your version HeavenShallBurn.
What you base the GAB on?

GAB=BAB+size modifier+strength
Note the regular 1-2-4-8 size modifier not the special size modifier, that way big gets a bonus but not such a large one.

make an attack roll, beat opponents GAB+10 or reflex defense (I've been using static saves since around 2002) whichever is higher to succeed.

Options
1.)Break Hold-throw to ground prone,throw number of spaces equal to str mod/2, release
2.)Hold-pin motionless without inflicting damage
3.)Crush-inflict damage from natural weapon or light artificial weapon
4.)Use as Weapon-use grappled opponent to smash something both take damage as if using crush option can be used ranged as throwing with break hold option