What's wrong with grapple?

[DrunkonDuty]

Just to make sure I understand you: the size modifier used starts at 1 for the smallest size (diminuative? fine?) and then goes up per category. The linear nature meaning that the bigger critters get less relative advantage. Correct?

The options you suggest, do they require another action or are they assumed to happen immediately upon a successful grapple? Personally I think I'd let them be used immediately.

 

[Victim]

Just to make sure I understand you: the size modifier used starts at 1 for the smallest size (diminuative? fine?) and then goes up per category. The linear nature meaning that the bigger critters get less relative advantage. Correct?

The options you suggest, do they require another action or are they assumed to happen immediately upon a successful grapple? Personally I think I'd let them be used immediately.

It sounds like he's reversing the ordinary size penalties to attack/defense and applying them to grapple checks. So that large creatures get a +1 instead of a +4 while tiny creatures get -2 instead of -8, etc. Since big creatures are generally really strong, and small ones weak, having vast bonuses from size is like counting the same thing twice.

The binary issue is a problem throughout D&D. Protection From Evil is up = totally safe from a vampire's gaze. Prot Evil goes down = totally boned. And so on and so forth for a great many spells. No threat/deadly threat. No inbetween. That pleasing middle ground where fights are close but the PCs win, which of all things D&D should be *designed and built* to achieve, is strangely hard to find.

True enough, but it's especially true in grappling. A vampire's domination ability is dangerous when not negated by protection from evil, but characters can still resist it via conventional means (Will save) especially if they spend some effort shoring up that weak spot. On the other hand, the way grapple bonuses work, characters generally can't win against big monsters if they actually have to make the check.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

Just to make sure I understand you: the size modifier used starts at 1 for the smallest size (diminuative? fine?) and then goes up per category. The linear nature meaning that the bigger critters get less relative advantage. Correct?

Just take the usual size cat modifier and flip the sign. Since medium is considered the baseline that's where I started.

The options you suggest, do they require another action or are they assumed to happen immediately upon a successful grapple? Personally I think I'd let them be used immediately.

They're part of the grapple attack. You succeed on the grapple roll you choose one of the options to apply. So you can win the roll then use crush option to deal damage. Next round you roll another to determine if you maintained control of the grapple. Now his friend is attacking you so you go for use as weapon and hit him with the guy you're grappling and deal damage to both. Third round roll to maintain break hold and toss grappled target prone in adjacent space so you can attack his friend while he gets up.

 

[EricNoah]

I think creatures that have Improved Grab should have a corresponding weakness -- their grabbing limbs can be hacked off, much like a hydra's heads. Give the limb a hardness and some hit points and voila, you have a scene that appears in many fantasy stories and movies -- a constricted victim, with an arm and a blade free, hacking their way to freeom.

 

[Celebrim]

I think creatures that have Improved Grab should have a corresponding weakness -- their grabbing limbs can be hacked off, much like a hydra's heads. Give the limb a hardness and some hit points and voila, you have a scene that appears in many fantasy stories and movies -- a constricted victim, with an arm and a blade free, hacking their way to freeom.

This works only if monster limbs are subject to maiming, but PC limbs are not.

 

[EricNoah]

I've never had a problem with PCs living by one set of rules and monsters by another. If I wanted to "rule it up" a bit I might add that it only works on creatures tha have improved grab and tentacle attacks. Or Improved Grab and some kind of reach. So not "biting grabs" and not your standard PC with normal arms.

 

[Voadam]

Part of it is rules ambiguity and doing things differently from the rest of the rules.

Do High HD monsters gain iterative grapple attacks when grappling? Can they use all their natural weapons in a grapple or just one with iteratives? If it is iteratives how does this interact with a normal full attack that includes an improved grab attack (e.g. dire bear).

The fact that explanation articles on the website and FAQ type stuff give conflicting interpretations does not help.

 

[SteveC]

I've never had a problem with PCs living by one set of rules and monsters by another.

So you are coming around to the 4E way of thinking!

If I wanted to "rule it up" a bit I might add that it only works on creatures tha have improved grab and tentacle attacks. Or Improved Grab and some kind of reach. So not "biting grabs" and not your standard PC with normal arms.

I like this idea. If your grapple is different because your physical form is different (which is the case with most of the MM creatures that are all grabby) I think some kind of a weakness is in order. In any case, I think there should be a mechanic for damaging the opponent such that they release the target at the very least.

--Steve

 

[el-remmen]

We use grapple quite a bit in my games, including big scrums including like 6 or 8 folks in the pile-on!

Aside from some clunkiness at the beginning due to folks not being used to it, it doesn't slow anything down anymore and works fine for us.

The one house rule I use is that when using the escape artist skill to escape a grapple, size modifiers are NOT applied.

 

[Celebrim]

The one house rule I use is that when using the escape artist skill to escape a grapple, size modifiers are NOT applied.

So you are the one I stole that rule from.

Second endorsement.