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What's wrong with scaling (and levels, bonuses, advancement, etc)?

Mercurius

Legend
First, an illustrative anecdote. I work at a private high school that tends to oscillate back and forth on the same issues, year after year, decade after decade, with various issues disappearing and then re-emerging months or years later, with not real change or evolution, like a vicious cycle that we can't break out of. The problem is that for a few years the general tenor is at one extreme and then people freak out and the approach goes all the way to the other extreme, ad nauseum. There is little in-between, little integration or dialectical synthesis.

We could extend this analogy to politics or just about any arena; e.g. binging and purging, feast or famine, and so on. The obvious question being: Can we integrate the best of both polarities and eliminate the limitations? Can we throw the bathwater out and keep the baby?

There is a meme in the D&D community that, while not being extremely influential (yet), seems to be growing in perfidy. This meme is the idea that D&D would be better off without optimization of any kind, even without leveling, scaling, advancement, or +3 swords of kewlness. I am left scratching my head at this, remembering the joy of starting a character at 1st level, customizing options, advancing him or her, becoming more powerful, finding new magic items, and so on. In other words, a major aspect of D&D's unique brand of fun (for me, but presumably for many others) is developing a character from 1st level on up, from a rusty short sword bought at market for 10 GP to a +5 vorpal fullblade pulled from the heart of a long dead demon lord's petrified corpse floating in the Astral Sea.

I hesitate to write this post considering I'm not a big fan of systems mastery and feel that it is one of the prongs in the fork that led to the demise of 3.5. I've never liked the fact (in 3.5, but to some degree in all iterations of D&D) that the more time you spend reading rulebooks, the better your character plays. This is one of the reasons I was never drawn to play Magic: The Gathering--it quickly became clear to me that the more money you spent, the big edge you had because the better your deck could become. Some degree of this is OK and even desirable; there should be some reward for studying, knowing and loving the game, but it can get out of hand. In 3.5 it was front-loaded in character building and development; in 4E it is more focused around tactics (so, at least, 4E has turned the emphasis slightly away from what cool stuff you can do and have, to how you use your cool stuff and abilities).

One design goal that I hope Mike Mearls and Monte Cook hold close to their hearts as they go forward with "whatever it is that they're doing" (ahem), is to optimize the essential qualities of D&D as a felt experience. What I mean by that is to make D&D always feel like D&D, to accent and enhance the "D&Dness" of the game. This is, of course, rather subjective, but I think we can say with some degree of confidence that races, classes, hit points, armor class, fireballs, beholders, and vorpal swords feel like D&D. And yes, levels, advancements, bonused magic items, and character optimization also feel like D&D (to me!). In other words, if we have to choose between "what makes sense/is the cutting edge of game design" and "what feels like D&D" I think we have to go with the latter.

(An example of where the designers of 4E seemed to lose sight of this is with the whole power system; don't get me wrong, I like powers and power sources taken on their own, as an RPG rules sub-system; but for D&D? Something was lost, namely the "feeling-difference" between classes, the idiosyncratic spell lists, and perhaps most of all, the in-built encouragement to improvise actions).

To put it another way, we shouldn't try to take D&D too far away from its roots. Develop and improve it, yes, give the option to play various styles of game play that aren't "classic D&D." But let's not change the core game into something else; let's not make it a storyteller-style game, an indie game, a game more conducive to exploring the subtleties of interpersonal communication than killing dragons and taking their loot or in exploring dark caverns and lost ruins, in gaining glory and power. When we start whittling away at idiosyncratic D&Disms, whether in an attempt to make it more "realistic" (e.g. replacing Hit Points with Armor Protection and Wounds) or to make it more "egalitarian" (e.g. getting rid of optimization and bonuses altogether), we lose something vital to the game, to its legacy.
 

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About the only paladin I ever had for ages earned his +3 swords of kewlness and then some. He ain't giving it back! Especially after that bloody pit fiend dropped half a mountain on him.
 



Some things in d&d should advance through leveling, many other things dont need to advance to work, nor feel like D&D.

An example, (maybe controversial) I don't think skills or non-weapon proficiencies require advancement to feel like D&D. But hit points, attack rolls, somehow stop feeling like D&D with "leveling".
 

I'm fine with characters growing in power. But I'm opposed to two things:

1. Having the whole world scale the same way, so that while numbers grow bigger, the play experience stays the same. If you're going to do that, just keep the numbers flat and leave the math simpler.

For instance, I'm a 1st level rogue, and I've got 30 HP, a monster has 30 HP, and I hit for about 12-15 damage per attack. Two or three hits, and the monster's done. A year later I'm an 11th level rogue. I've got 81 HP, a monster has 80 or 90 HP, and I hit for 30-40 damage per attack. Two or three hits, and the monster's done.

I'm still just shaving hit points off a monster with abstract swinging of my weapon. Why bother even increasing the numbers? Just give me something new to do.


2. Also, scaling things is a sort of planned obsolescence. Remember at low level, when, like, a torch was maybe useful because you could set someone on fire, and fire hurt? Well, at high level I can be on fire all combat long, and shrug it off, because hit points scale. Hell, the torch probably wouldn't even hit me, because it's not a 17th level +4 torch, so my AC is too high thanks to my +4 full plate.

Oh, and what kind of lunatic is Drizzt for using the same two magic swords for the past century? He's had to have leveled, so those dinky old blades must be really dragging down his attack bonus.

Or even the idea that hey, he's a troll, and he's meant to fight 10th level PCs, so our 1st level heroes can't even scratch him because his defenses are too high. It'd be one thing if the logic was "He's a big sack of meat and 1st level characters probably won't deal enough damage to him before he kills them all," but making him somehow just diamond-hard doesn't feel appropriately real. Hell, I'd love it if you could cheat a bit, play a 1st level wizard, and put trolls to sleep because their Will defense sucks. But nope, their will defense might suck compared to other 10th level monsters, but it's tougher by far than the wisest 1st level cleric.


Growing in power is nice, but I'd prefer people to get powerful in narratively plausible ways, instead of using the current scale. Dragons should have thick scales that reduce damage, but it's not hard to hit one, because they're bloody huge! So high level PCs ought to get powers like "chop through scales" or whatever.

Eh, I play 4e anyway, and I like it. I just wish I could throw a flask of burning oil at a frost demon and actually accomplish something, instead of having to buy a 500 gp high-level flask of oil.
 

There is a meme in the D&D community that, while not being extremely influential (yet), seems to be growing in perfidy. This meme is the idea that D&D would be better off without optimization of any kind, even without leveling, scaling, advancement, or +3 swords of kewlness. I am left scratching my head at this, remembering the joy of starting a character at 1st level, customizing options, advancing him or her, becoming more powerful, finding new magic items, and so on. In other words, a major aspect of D&D's unique brand of fun (for me, but presumably for many others) is developing a character from 1st level on up, from a rusty short sword bought at market for 10 GP to a +5 vorpal fullblade pulled from the heart of a long dead demon lord's petrified corpse floating in the Astral Sea.

You're a bit confused.

A system without scaling math doesn't exclude any of the fun elements you just described. The only difference is that the numbers you're using stay roughly the same between 1st-level and 30th-level.

A vorpal sword, for instance, might still be extremely hard to find for anyone below 25th-level. But it's hard to find because characters below 25th-level don't have the abilities to readily travel to places where such items might be found. 25th-level characters, however, have such abilities in abundance, like flying, teleporting, scrying, etc.

The only difference is that it's no longer +5. It's still vorpal, though, and still a 30th-level rare weapon.

What's more, character development and customisation actually become MORE of a focus because optimisation via mathematical system elements is essentially redundant. Every level you get to choose elements that make your character unique rather than things that maximise your DPR or damage mitigation.

The whole 'gaining more power' thing is an illusion. The only thing that changes is that the numbers get bigger and more complex. Why increase the difficulty of playing the game when you're not actually changing the difficulty of the game itself?
 

I'm fine with characters growing in power. But I'm opposed to two things:

1. Having the whole world scale the same way, so that while numbers grow bigger, the play experience stays the same. If you're going to do that, just keep the numbers flat and leave the math simpler.

For instance, I'm a 1st level rogue, and I've got 30 HP, a monster has 30 HP, and I hit for about 12-15 damage per attack. Two or three hits, and the monster's done. A year later I'm an 11th level rogue. I've got 81 HP, a monster has 80 or 90 HP, and I hit for 30-40 damage per attack. Two or three hits, and the monster's done.

I'm still just shaving hit points off a monster with abstract swinging of my weapon. Why bother even increasing the numbers? Just give me something new to do.


2. Also, scaling things is a sort of planned obsolescence. Remember at low level, when, like, a torch was maybe useful because you could set someone on fire, and fire hurt? Well, at high level I can be on fire all combat long, and shrug it off, because hit points scale. Hell, the torch probably wouldn't even hit me, because it's not a 17th level +4 torch, so my AC is too high thanks to my +4 full plate.

Oh, and what kind of lunatic is Drizzt for using the same two magic swords for the past century? He's had to have leveled, so those dinky old blades must be really dragging down his attack bonus.

Or even the idea that hey, he's a troll, and he's meant to fight 10th level PCs, so our 1st level heroes can't even scratch him because his defenses are too high. It'd be one thing if the logic was "He's a big sack of meat and 1st level characters probably won't deal enough damage to him before he kills them all," but making him somehow just diamond-hard doesn't feel appropriately real. Hell, I'd love it if you could cheat a bit, play a 1st level wizard, and put trolls to sleep because their Will defense sucks. But nope, their will defense might suck compared to other 10th level monsters, but it's tougher by far than the wisest 1st level cleric.


Growing in power is nice, but I'd prefer people to get powerful in narratively plausible ways, instead of using the current scale. Dragons should have thick scales that reduce damage, but it's not hard to hit one, because they're bloody huge! So high level PCs ought to get powers like "chop through scales" or whatever.

Eh, I play 4e anyway, and I like it. I just wish I could throw a flask of burning oil at a frost demon and actually accomplish something, instead of having to buy a 500 gp high-level flask of oil.

I agree wholeheartedly.

The only thing that I'd add is this - if the designers are going to work out "the maths" and try to make it work across all levels, please DON'T include assumed magic item bonuses. I found the games 'worked' better when the occasional magic item made a clear (if small) difference, rather than somewhat forcing the DM to hand out magic items or upgrades like candy to give the PCs a chance of keeping up with the monsters (or introduce whole new 'automatic bonuses' rules or something).

Cheers
 

They don't have to be mutually exclusive.
That's not how your OP comes off. :-S

In any case, you're right that cutting edge and 'the D&D feel' aren't always at odds. But when they are, I'll take the former over the latter.

For example, I wouldn't want to play D&D without its level-up treadmill because I like leveling up, getting new goodies and new bonuses. Therefore, level-less game design isn't cutting edge and there's no conflict. (I can define 'cutting edge' because it's just as subjective as 'that D&D feel.' :D)

But I'd love to play D&D without +X items. Just give me my +1s with each level-up, thank you! If that doesn't 'feel' like D&D, well, I'm not the sentimental type. :yawn:

To each, his own.
 

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