Whats your D&Dism?

[boredgremlin]

After de-railing my own thread with this question I figured i would give it its own.

When it comes to the things that are D&D tropes to people I think thats where WoTC has gotten into trouble before. 1e and 4e are basically completely different games. Theres a few similar names but other then rolling a D20 for lots of stuff how much do they really have in common mechanically? Not too much IMO.

3e was closer to 2e and probably closer to 4e then 4e is to 1e (geez thats a tongue twister) but now 5e is supposedly trying to bring them all together. A doomed effort to please everyone if ever there was one.

4e made a lot of people angry because they changed so much from 3e. I remember 3e making some people angry because it was so much more complicated then 2e and some stuff just felt weird in comparison.

Maybe thats a poll we need to see Monte put up instead of the stupid ones they've done so far. What actually IS a D&Dism to people?

Iconic classes?
They change all time. Except for fighter, cleric, magic user and thief. Everything else is constantly coming and going in different editions and splat books.

Races?
4e added to that with decidedly mixed results among the gaming community.

the 6 ability scores?
Thats probably safe to assume.

HP?
A 4e guy starts out with almost as many HP as a 1e cleric MAXES out at. And anyway UA had variants and I believe a 4e book did as well.

Vancian magic?
Lots of people hate it, 4e changed it, lots of people hated that too, 5e means to change it back and no one seems overly thrilled by that either.

So what actually IS a necessary D&Dism to everyone is probably the most important question for a new edition. And oddly, the only one they dont seem to have bothered to ask yet.

For me if i had to pick one its ORCS. Not any of the other stuff. If theres one thing thats been consistent throughout the editions its that Orcs are big, trouble making jerks that constantly need to be killed.

Orcs and the fighters that chop them up are about the only things I can imagine a hardcore 1e adherent and a 4e lover talking about and being completely on the same page with no arguments.

Invading an orc lair and killing the pesky bastards is a universal D&D experience. How we kill them changes, the races and classes that kill them change, the spells that make them easier to kill come and go. Even the weapons we off them with change (I'm looking at you 3e, double axe, double sword, double stupid crap etc. etc. ) but the basic theme of go in there and dice em up so they stop causing trouble never goes away.


So what does everyone else think is a necessary D&Dism?

 

[Kynn]

Your introduction smacks too much of edition warring.

I can't see this thread being too useful, but I hope I'm proven wrong.

 

[boredgremlin]

Your introduction smacks too much of edition warring.

I can't see this thread being too useful, but I hope I'm proven wrong.

I really dont see how. Its a simple fact. Thats why pathfinder exists. Lots of 3e players didnt like the 4e changes. Just like lots of 1e and 2e players didnt like the 3e changes and stayed with their game.

And I'm sure after 5e comes out there will be 4e players who dont like the changes and stick with 4e.

And so on and so forth up until 10e comes out in 4 or 5 years and theres still people playing 1e.

Its just the nature of change with this sort of game. Making a design goal to please everyone is foolish and hopeless in any business. Casting too wide a net is more likely to fail everyone by not not excelling at anything then it is to please everyone by being just that awesome.

 

[Mercule]

For classes, I think Fighter, Thief/Rogue, and Wizard. I almost included Cleric, but I realized, mid-sentence that it just doesn't feel as important, to me. I like some of the other classes (I love the feel of the 1e Ranger, the 3e Warlock is cool, etc.), but they aren't critical to the feel of the game.

For races, I like a humanocentric game, so that's the only key race. After that, I'd say elves, dwarves, and orcs. I use hobgoblins as a core race IMC, but that doesn't make them part of the kernel of the game.

Definitely the ability scores. And I mean the scores, not just the bonuses. I'd also like them listed in the right order, but that's not critical.

I hate Vancian magic and generally refuse to play casters because of it. 4e made me realize, though, that Vancian magic is part of D&D's DNA. It needs to be there. I'd also like to see some non-Vancian options (Warlock) and some extras for casters (reserve feats or at-wills). Again, that doesn't mean they define D&D.

I'm going to throw in skills, too. I played BECMI, 1e, and 2e, so I know they weren't listed in the APH (PHB, to you younglings). There were secondary skills in the DMG, though, and NWPs, after that. Don't forget the Thief abilities and Ranger alertness. The evolution is in consolidation, not creation. They've always taken a back seat to (most) classes, though. Unless, of course, you were playing the Thief.

 

[Mercule]

Your introduction smacks too much of edition warring.

I can't see this thread being too useful, but I hope I'm proven wrong.

I don't see how musings about the bits that unify the editions could be warring. Besides, 5e is supposed to be all about unifying the editions. Seems pretty pertinent, to me.

 

[Kynn]

I really dont see how. Its a simple fact. Thats why pathfinder exists. Lots of 3e players didnt like the 4e changes. Just like lots of 1e and 2e players didnt like the 3e changes and stayed with their game.

If you want a constructive, inclusive discussion about what we all consider essential to the D&D experience, you shouldn't start it with a little tirade full of debatable (and largely incorrect) opinions about why you don't like 4e D&D.

 

[boredgremlin]

If you want a constructive, inclusive discussion about what we all consider essential to the D&D experience, you shouldn't start it with a little tirade full of debatable (and largely incorrect) opinions about why you don't like 4e D&D.

Clearly your butthurt over the death of 4e and have it on the brain. But you should really stop projecting that onto threads about the future.

BoredGremlin has earned a 3 day ban for gratuitous rudeness and edition warring - Plane Sailing

Its a simple fact that many, many players thought 4e got it wrong and didnt buy it.

Now you can sit here and scream to high heaven that it didnt but since WoTC already agreed with us by killing it your not going to accomplish anything. They arent going to scrap 5e and continue supporting 4e.

Nor are they going to give us anything truly meaningful about the final rules for quite some time. So why dont you stop beating the dead 4e horse and let the rest of us uselessly speculate on the future as if our opinions matter?

 

[Kynn]

Clearly your butthurt over the death of 4e and have it on the brain. But you should really stop projecting that onto threads about the future.

Actually, you're the one who keeps bringing up 4e (and making false statements about it). I think you're the one who's got 4e on the brain.

There was no need for your gratuitous (and incorrect) statements about 4e to start off this thread. You could cut out everything before "So what actually IS a necessary..." in your original post, and we could talk about what we agree on.

Instead, you're continuing with being divisive because you apparently have an axe to grind against 4e. That's fine and all, but it doesn't help us to define what we all agree on.

 

[LostSoul]

Dungeons.

And dragons.

I think there's a lot to that. Exploring strange, weird places full of danger, encountering monsters - actual monsters - and taking their hoards of wealth.

I think you can take that and support a variety of play styles. What happens to you once you get the wealth? What can you do with it? What, exactly, counts as a "dragon"? Or a "dungeon"? How much danger do you face? How do you overcome the danger? How is it weird and strange? How do you explore?

 

[Savage Wombat]

Could we have a thread where people say things they really liked about editions they don't play? Without sarcastic back-handed insults?

Or is that too much to ask from D&D fans?