What's your "Leveling Up" Sweet spot?

[Ahnehnois]

My baseline is weekly sessions with level ups every two sessions. I don't want to just level up every session because then it would feel presumptive, rather than earned. That said, I have a limited time frame and a large scope of material so I can't waste time. Also, so much of the fun of D&D is about leveling up, I hate to deprive the players; I feel cruel if I don't level them.

 

[ggroy]

Arscott, I gotta admit I'm sort of in the same boat. I like a tighter campaign personally. Then again, any time I've been involved in a slower game, it's invariably died a slow, grinding death as the DM gets more and more burned out. So, obviously, it's my experiences coloring my views.

I've walked away from games where the DM was completely "tone deaf" about pacing the game, where the player characters only leveled up once a year (or once every two years).

In practice, I've found that games with really slow leveling tend to have problems with keeping the attention of the players. Attrition of players becomes more of a problem, than actual burnout. Players who are bored out of their skulls, tend to drift off and do other things.

In these really slow games, the players ended up drifting off and spending more time at the game table doing other things such as:

- watching youtube videos on their laptop
- playing a "covert" game of poker under the DM's nose
- doing their taxes on their laptop
- playing tetris or another video game on their laptop
- paying more attention to the music playing on the stereo, than the game
- smoking weed
- etc ...

 

[GreyLord]

My experiences with slow leveling groups is the exact opposite. If they get together, and when they get together...if they make it through the first few months, they normally can stick together for YEARS longer then any other group. They don't always play the same game though, sometimes breaking for another game, but always coming back for more.

Of course, these groups are few and far between now days, probably being more the exception then the norm.

I've played with both really quick leveling groups, and really slow leveling groups (albeit one of the slowest was because we'd die every other week...so new characters constantly...but we almost never leveled!).

 

[Lanefan]

Also, so much of the fun of D&D is about leveling up, I hate to deprive the players; I feel cruel if I don't level them.

In practice, I've found that games with really slow leveling tend to have problems with keeping the attention of the players.

I'll try to be diplomatic here...

If the expectations of the players are so tied up with levelling - as opposed to, say, an interesting and engaging story, some good edge-of-the-seat combats, occasional slapstick, heroic derring-do, exploration and discovery of a world they've never seen, and so forth - then there's a serious flaw in some aspect of how the game is being presented to said players in the first place.

I don't know if the flaw lies in the game's design or marketing, or if it's coming from what the new players are being taught by those already playing, or what. But if someone came to my table - and, I suspect, quite a few other tables - expecting and-or demanding constant reward in terms of level-ups there'd be a brief argument followed by a smackdown followed by an open seat in the game.

Lan-"yes, the tables go to level 20; that doesn't mean you're going to get there"-efan

 

[ggroy]

My experiences with slow leveling groups is the exact opposite. If they get together, and when they get together...if they make it through the first few months, they normally can stick together for YEARS longer then any other group. They don't always play the same game though, sometimes breaking for another game, but always coming back for more.

Of course, these groups are few and far between now days, probably being more the exception then the norm.

I've played with both really quick leveling groups, and really slow leveling groups (albeit one of the slowest was because we'd die every other week...so new characters constantly...but we almost never leveled!).

I was referring to groups that were playing the same rpg game every week (or every two weeks), where the player characters didn't die every other game. Essentially it was playing the same characters every week (or two weeks) for a year or two until they were able to level up.

 

[ggroy]

I'll try to be diplomatic here...

Diplomacy can cut both ways.

then there's a serious flaw in some aspect of how the game is being presented to said players in the first place.

It's a complete mismatch in expectations between the players and DM, from the very beginning.

I don't know if the flaw lies in the game's design or marketing

It's rarely this.

or if it's coming from what the new players are being taught by those already playing, or what.

In my experience, it is usually this. Typically they thought (from reading the rulebooks) or were taught the game from others, that is was mostly hack and slash.

But if someone came to my table - and, I suspect, quite a few other tables - expecting and-or demanding constant reward in terms of level-ups there'd be a brief argument followed by a smackdown followed by an open seat in the game.

This an inevitable outcome, when there is a serious mismatch between the expectations of the DM and an individual player.

This is the main reason why I figure out what the expectations of new players are, and how much they match my own expectations. In my experience if there is a serious mismatch, the game is frequently doomed to fail.

 

[Lanefan]

This an inevitable outcome, when there is a serious mismatch between the expectations of the DM and an individual player.

This is the main reason why I figure out what the expectations of new players are, and how much they match my own expectations. In my experience if there is a serious mismatch, the game is frequently doomed to fail.

In this, and many aspects beyond just this, your analysis has hit the mark.

Lanefan

 

[Piratecat]

I was referring to groups that were playing the same rpg game every week (or every two weeks), where the player characters didn't die every other game. Essentially it was playing the same characters every week (or two weeks) for a year or two until they were able to level up.

Sure. My 3e game was really close to this -- we'd level every 12 sessions, which is twice a year since we played every other week. I worked my ass off to make sure it never got boring. Lots of tricky plots, lots of political and roleplaying challenges; I can't speak for my players, but I was really thrilled by how much fun I was having.

So what made it work, and what kept turnover and boredom down?

- Frequent requests for feedback from players
- Making sure the game world responded to their actions, so they wanted to see what happened next
- Consistent and predictable scheduling
- Restricting off-topic table-talk
- Giving them plots that ensured character development, so that they were emotionally involved
- Not being a hardass when people wanted to tweak their character (we had a ranger become a cleric through in-game actions)

 

[ggroy]

So what made it work, and what kept turnover and boredom down?

- Frequent requests for feedback from players
- Making sure the game world responded to their actions, so they wanted to see what happened next
- Consistent and predictable scheduling
- Restricting off-topic table-talk
- Giving them plots that ensured character development, so that they were emotionally involved
- Not being a hardass when people wanted to tweak their character (we had a ranger become a cleric through in-game actions)

This sounds like the right strategy to do for such long term games.

The really "boring" game I've been referring to with the "tone deaf" DM, was one where the DM would be spending so much time on minutiae and doing things "by the book" in great detail. (It turned out this particular DM was a high functioning autistic). For example, an entire three/four hours session was spent on the players preparing the camp for the evening, and guard shifts during sleep time. Another example is when the players decided to go to explore an area which did not have much of anything documented in any official supplement books, the high functioning autistic DM would just repeatedly say "you find nothing" for three or four hours of dice rolling to do searches.

It was in this particular game with this particular high functioning autistic DM, where after awhile we were playing a "covert" game of poker under the DM's nose. One player lit up a joint.

 

[ggroy]

Sure. My 3e game was really close to this -- we'd level every 12 sessions

In the game I'm thinking of, it took around 40 to 50 sessions to level up due to the DM's tone deafness.