What's your opinion of GURPS?

[KDLadage]

GURPS is one of those games that, in all honesty, is a wonderous thing to behold. It is pure genious in its design. It is elegant, simple and straight forward...

About 10 years ago, that was a true statement. But after a decade of cruft thrown on it, and a miriad of special cases have been thrown in -- not to even examine the fact that about half of the rules are based on formulae and the other half on 'best guesses' (look through the gun stats sometime) -- the system has truly begun to show its age and has had some of the more rough-edges show through far too prominantly.

Back when I left AD&D (1e) I went through phases of playing Traveller, Paladium, Top Secret, and a real host of other systems. I came across GURPS (1e) in the old Box Set. I read it. I liked it. I moved on to 2e and 3e and the 3er. Over that time -- especially after 3e -- a lot of great stuff has been added. The Vehicles System is like a game unto itself for some sorts of gearheads...

I like it. I use it. I used to love it. But these days, I cannot find anyone to play the game with. If it is not d20 or WoD, most people around here do not want to play it. So I find myself playing a lot of d20 games. Not that I mind. I think d20 is a fine system. But the topic here is GURPS...

Someone here said that GURPS is a min-maxer's dream system. Well, I would say that GURPS comes in second in that arena. HERO/CHAMPIONS would be the dream system. GURPS is the one that CHAMPIONS players look at as "too gritty" for their tastes...

Someone else here said that GURPS is a bit "uncomrpomising" in its realism. Well, yes and no. The system can be highly deadly. But not any more so than many, many other systems out there (d20 included!). There are enough options and such for cinematic combat that it can be as deadly, or non-lethal as you like -- without changing fundamental aspects of the system.

Others have claimed the system is clunky. It can feel that way if you turn on every single optional detail rule at once. In all honesty, the system for action resulution (and this includes combat) at its simplest never involves more that three rolls. A typical non-opposed skill check = 1 roll. A typical opposed skill check = 2 rolls (one for each side). A typical combat action is an opposed check that may involve a damage roll. This is the combat system in a nutshell. Add in the thousands of additional details and optional rules and yes, you can have a lot more rolls (hit location, critical hit or fumble results, misfire rolls, and so on and so forth). If you play the system at the same degree of detail as d20, for example, the system is about as streamlined as d20 is and without too much trouble you are on your way.

The problems that GURPS has are numerous, however. For example, much of the game was originally written with a human scale in mind (wonder why?) and so it does not (these days) scale very well at all -- strength especially. Damage in the system is actually a measure of penetration, and so a lot of additional rules have been introduced over the years to handle this discrepency (blowthrough, limb crits, etc.). Character Point costs are mostly linear, which makes super-heroic proportions a little too cheap for my tastes. The skill system is linked directly to attributes and it is based upon a true bell curve -- thus the range os usable numbers on 3d6 is limited; this creates some interesting problems with the defaulting system. And so on... etc... ad infinitum.

Many people (myself included) feel that a 4e of GURPS is overdue. Steve Jackson is reluctant (to say the least) to do this. They have been talking about the possibility for over a year. The Pyramid Message Boards has a 4e forum with over 16000 posts to it in the last 12 months. Many want to see the game cleaned up. If Sean Punch and David Pulver get the go-ahead to do this (they may be working on it now; rumors abound), then GURPS has the potential to be a truly great system and once again live up to the Generic Universal and System portions of its name. Right now, it no longer does.

But is GURPS a good system? You bet it is.

 

[The_Gneech]

Well, anybody who knows me knows that I love the HERO System (of which Champions is a subset); I've never played GURPS but the two of them are more similar to each other than either one is to other systems floating around out there.

However, HERO requires a few things which can be difficult to find:

1. The players have to know the system.
2. The gamemaster needs time to do a LOT of legwork.
3. Both players and GM need to be very good at creating strong concepts up front.
   [/list=1]
   
   HERO is sorta like one of those gigantic instrument panels on a 747 ... you have very detailed, very fine control -- but if you don't know what you're doing, you can quickly screw things up! You can use Skills, Talents, and Powers to build anything you want, from Merry and Pippin to The Man of Steel, but there's a very steep learning curve.
   
   And decent, ready-to-run HERO materials are practically nonexistent ... which means that the GM has to build a world from the ground up, custom-build every NPC, and generally tweak the hell out of things before the game can begin.
   
   Finally, although HERO is infinitely customizable, it doesn't come with much in the way of default builds. With D&D, you roll stats, pick race and class, assign feats, skills, and equipment, and you're off and running. In HERO, every character is built from the ground up, so if you want to be able to just pick somebody off a list, you're a bit out of luck.
   
   -The Gneech

 

[KDLadage]

I just got sick of the "I swing... I swing... I swing..." style gameplay D&D seems to favor and went looking for a more RP-intensive ruleset.

Oh... something I left out of my last posting in this thread: I think (and this is just my opinion) that the RULESSET HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE AMOUNT OF ROLE-PLAY INTENSITY A CAMPAIGN WILL HAVE -- THIS IS ENTIRELY THE REALM OF THE GAME MASTER.

You can play combat intensive, non-roleplaying GURPS games (I have and have had a great time). You can play extremely RP intensive D&D games (I have and I have had a great time). The system is a tool. It will not change the house if you use a ball-peen hammer or a claw hammer. Both will drive the nail.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I've ran some GURPS Cthulhupunk stuff and find the basic combat system fast and deadly, perfect for the non cinematic genres. I think the combat system is cool, high skill swordsmen will fight until someone criticals or someone rolls really bad on a parry. So it is a lot of swing, parry, swing, parry....bad roll....death. It can be a long dead heat fight until the first mistake is made then it's capitalized on and someone dies. I would think that's pretty realistic.

I'd use it for any modern, horror, or Sci-fi stuff.

 

[Sejs]

True enough -

D&D~
Player: Full Attack. Swing.. miss. Ac like 6. Second attack.. Ac 22. Does that connect?

DM: Yep.

Player: 13 physical damage, 2 fire.




GURPS~
Player: Attack - called shot, heart. That's what? -4?

DM: Yep.

Player: Okay. I've got maxed Hit Location, so that bumps it down to -1. So, broadsword at 16 or less. And connect.

DM: And he fails to dodge. Damage?

Player: 7 impaling, and he was in chain, so that's Pd1/Dr2 against impale, so 5 damage gets through and heart hit tripples that up to 15.



GURPS combat can be just as dry as any other system. The mechanics don't make it cool and flavorful - it's the players and DM

^_^

 

[Belphanior]

Re: Re: What's your opinion of GURPS?

Oh... something I left out of my last posting in this thread: I think (and this is just my opinion) that the RULESSET HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE AMOUNT OF ROLE-PLAY INTENSITY A CAMPAIGN WILL HAVE -- THIS IS ENTIRELY THE REALM OF THE GAME MASTER.

I beg to differ.
As I noted previously, Exalted will allow you to get extra dice (it is a pool system) for proper descriptions of your actions.
For example, you say..

"I hit him with my mace!"
"Roll whatever you're supposed to roll."

vs

"I grit my teeth, spin around, and catch him across the chest with my mace!"
"You have properly described your action. +1 die."


Wushu goes a step further: every element in your discription is a die you roll.

"I attack him!"
"Good for you, roll 1 die."

vs

"I kick him (1) in the throat (2), sending him flying back (3), with an audible crunch as his tranchea collapses (4)."
"Roll 4 dice."

(Yes, it's a cinematic game)



The Riddle of Steel is even better.
You have "Spiritual Attributes", which are kind of like your motivations.
Just killed 7 bandits? How nice, you now have their stuff. No, no xp for you. This didn't matter.
Fighting your father's murderer? You get a ton of extra dice, and an assload of xp afterwards.



As you can see, rules most certainly can enforce roleplaying.

(Sorry for the rant.)

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

So you can declare that you are going to crunch someone's throat before rolling?
It sounds like you are stating the effect of what you are doing before you even roll to see if you do it. Can I declare that I am doing a back flip, landing behind him, punching my hand through his torso, pulling out his heart, and showing it to him? Does that mean that is what will happen? Or is it just that you are doing a good job of saying what you are trying to do you get bonus dice?


Sorry if this sounds stupid but I've never played a game like that.

 

[Belphanior]

So you can declare that you are going to crunch someone's throat before rolling?
It sounds like you are stating the effect of what you are doing before you even roll to see if you do it. Can I declare that I am doing a back flip, landing behind him, punching my hand through his torso, pulling out his heart, and showing it to him? Does that mean that is what will happen? Or is it just that you are doing a good job of saying what you are trying to do you get bonus dice?


Sorry if this sounds stupid but I've never played a game like that.

In Wushu?
More or less. As a cinematic game, it uses scene resolution, not task resolution.

For instance, when fighting the Horde of Ninjas, the goal is not to first kill Ninja 1, then Ninja 2, etc. The goal is to defeat the collective whole.
So, you declare you horribly mutilate Ninja 1 in an improbable way, getting a load of dice in the process. As a nameless NPC, the poor ninja dies.

But how much his death matters depends on the roll. The Ninja Horde has been assinged an overall threat level. When the threat level is gone, all ninjas are dead. Or they flee. Or the reinforcements stopped.
If you describe your attack as hosing down every single ninja with an uzi, fine. They all died. But look! More ninja pop out of the woodwork, who you failed to spot before. Damn those stealthy ninjas...

So you roll your dice and count. High success? You kick him away, knocking over several other ninja as well. Plus, they saw how mighty you are and start to get discouraged.
No successes at all? Well you killed that one ninja, but the other get so angry at that they fight more effectively. Or something like that.


It works a bit differently when facing an arch-nemesis, because he doesn't go down just because you say so. It's the slightly more traditional opposed rolls then.

But the little guys are at your mercy.

Edit: spelling

 

[KDLadage]

Re: Re: Re: What's your opinion of GURPS?

I beg to differ.
As I noted previously, Exalted will allow you to get extra dice (it is a pool system) for proper descriptions of your actions.
For example, you say..

"I hit him with my mace!"
"Roll whatever you're supposed to roll."

vs

"I grit my teeth, spin around, and catch him across the chest with my mace!"
"You have properly described your action. +1 die."


Wushu goes a step further: every element in your discription is a die you roll.

"I attack him!"
"Good for you, roll 1 die."

vs

"I kick him (1) in the throat (2), sending him flying back (3), with an audible crunch as his tranchea collapses (4)."
"Roll 4 dice."

(Yes, it's a cinematic game)



The Riddle of Steel is even better.
You have "Spiritual Attributes", which are kind of like your motivations.
Just killed 7 bandits? How nice, you now have their stuff. No, no xp for you. This didn't matter.
Fighting your father's murderer? You get a ton of extra dice, and an assload of xp afterwards.



As you can see, rules most certainly can enforce roleplaying.

(Sorry for the rant.)

And I am sorry, but I beg to differ -- this is as far from what I would describe as Role Playing as one can get. What you are decribing is a system that rewards a certain type of overtly described fantasy, not the ability to ensure that a character has gotten into a roll.

 

[Belphanior]

My experience tells me differently.

A very strong warrior and a very cunning one can be expressed more fully in such a system than just taking Power Attack or Expertise.

The strong one can actually describe how his blows are so strong that the opposition can not effectively parry with his feeble arms.
The smart one can describe how his feinting and trickery misleads his opponent, also making his parries less effective. (Without needing to waste time with bluff rolls.)

They do the same thing, but with their own styles. I feel that this improvement allows them to stay in their roles, even in the middle of dice-heavy combat.

Even if two warriors had the same stats and the same equipment, you could still tell the diffference between Bob and Joe, because Bob always uses large, overhanded blows, and Joe thrusts with short, precise strikes.
The Exalted system gives no difference between the two styles (and neither does D&D, really), but it does reward them for having more personality than "I attack".

YMMV