D&D 5E What's Your Spell Slot Sweet Spot?

[kerleth]

I built a homebrew mage for 3rd edition that started with 3 spell slots and escalated to 12 at 20th level. He had a limited number of spells known (his intelligence modifer I think) that he could cast spontaneously. The spells were seperated into 4 tiers. Many of the lowest tier ones were built to be useful multiple times throughout the day, kinda like encounter or at-will. He gained the ability to learn metamagic style abilities as he gained levels. These could instead be traded in for more spells known or more spell slots per day. Also, whenever he gained a level he could exchange any spell he knew for any other spell he could cast. The key was in the spell slots and limited spell selection. There were no "levels" to the spell slots. You could use a slot to cast any spell you knew. With the limited spell selection sometimes a lower tier spell would be much more appropriate than your strongest spell, and they saw use. Also, the spells were (supposed to be) designed to scale well so even the spells you had at 1st level would remain useful into mid and possibly even high levels. The limited spell selection also made each character feel unique. It never got past a Beta stage, but everyone I know who saw it greatly prefered it to the 3.0 wizard. Looking back it could have used A LOT of improvement, but it had potential. Of course that wouldn't satisfy enough people as the only sort of caster, but I'd like to see something like that in 5E.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

I think my preferred spellcaster would have somewhere between 3 and 10 slots that can take spells of any level. Some high level spells would actually provide at-will abilities when prepared.

I'd probably put a limit that one can only prepare three spells of any given level.

 

[mlund]

I've been an advocate for trading off lower-level slots for higher-level slots once you reach a critical capacity. It's definitely against the grain of D&D tradition (horde everything, give nothing back, trade in nothing), but D&DNext is supposed to be about improvement. It's close enough to the old Vancian model to be an improvement rather than a replacement, IMO.

Give the Wizard and Cleric their extra spell slot at each level, but cap them at like a 4 or 5 level spread. So something like this:

Character Level: 1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9
Level 1: 2
Level 2: 3
Level 3: 3/2
Level 4: 3/3
Level 5: 3/3/2
Level 6: 3/3/3
Level 7: 3/3/3/2
Level 8: 3/3/3/3
Level 9: 3/3/3/3/2
Level 10: 3/3/3/3/3
Level 11: 0/3/3/3/3/2
Level 12: 0/3/3/3/3/3
Level 13: 0/0/3/3/3/3/2
Level 14: 0/0/3/3/3/3/3
Level 15: 0/0/0/3/3/3/3/2
etc.

Just making sure that you can always use a lower-level spell in a higher-level slot.

Actually, I'd prefer it if we weren't having spell levels ramp all the way to to 9th or 10th level. I think maxing out at Level 7 (like Divine Magic did back in AD&D) would be good enough, and the pacing of non-0-level spells would be reasonable enough that you wouldn't need to trade slots in.

I'd rather see something like this: 1/2/3/4/5/6/7
Level 1: 2
Level 2: 3
Level 3: 3/1
Level 4: 3/2
Level 5: 3/3
Level 6: 3/3/1
Level 7: 3/3/2
Level 8: 3/3/3
Level 9: 3/3/3/1
Level 10: 3/3/3/2
Level 11: 3/3/3/3
Level 12: 3/3/3/3/1
Level 13: 3/3/3/3/2
Level 14: 3/3/3/3/3
Level 15: 3/3/3/3/3/1
Level 16: 3/3/3/3/3/2
Level 17: 3/3/3/3/3/3
Level 18: 3/3/3/3/3/3/1
Level 19: 3/3/3/3/3/3/2
Level 20: 3/3/3/3/3/3/3

- Marty Lund

 

[Aloïsius]

So I would recommend that 1st level casters should get a smallish number of powers (with decent uses/day), then this should gradually increase... but that it should plateau at the end of "low level" (whatever that means). Thereafter, the Wizard should get new and more powerful spells, but these should generally replace those that went before (and have since become obselete).

Rather than replace them with new spell, I'd rather have expand them with new options to the spell, while keeping the same spell. 3e "phantom mount" is a good example of this, as would be the whole line of "cure wound" spells rolled into one, or a blur/displacement/transparency (think predator's invisibility) spell.

This way, spells never become obsolete, and you would gain the additional flexibility of choosing the slot-level at which you use the spell. It would reduce the "unpractical" aspect of high level casters (as you only need to memorize the fundamental spell-effect, not its variations) without reducing choices and options.

One can also imagine giving a "range" to the spells (low-mid-high-epic), with really new effects becoming available in such or such range. But they would be few, as to not make spell management too much unwieldy. (Yes, I know that someone's "too much" is someone else's "not enough"...)

 

[howandwhy99]

The resource management element of D&D tests player ability, not the characters. Spell management at 1st level is much less than at 10th level as players are understood to have mastered each of the less difficult levels prior to advancing.

I don't think anyone should start out with more than they can handle, but the challenge level should increase. Think of it like a game of Snakes, but about strategy and logistics rather than eye-hand coordination.

 

[Falling Icicle]

There are alot of things to take into consideration when answering this question, such as:

How many spell levels are there?

How many total spells are available? D&D typically has hundreds of spells.

How narrow are the spells? For example, are things like minor image, silent image, major image, programmed image, etc. all separate spells, or is there just one "phantom image" spell that covers all of those things? Alot of spells could be consolidated, in which case I would be more comfortable with fewer spell slots.

Does this number include cantrips?

My preferred number of daily spells would probably be somewhere around 10, assuming there weren't that many spell levels, the spells were broader rather than ultra specific and that you get some at-will cantrips in addition to that total.

I really liked the 3.5 warlock, for example, even though they only had 12 invocations known at 20th level. But there were also only four levels (grades) of invocations, they could all be used at-will, and they tended to be quite versatile in application, often mimicking a very versatile arcane spell or in some cases mimicking the effects of multiple spells.

The reason I protest the way they're doing things in the new playtest packet is because they're still using 9 levels of spells, the spells are still ultra-specific and there are still going to be at least a dozen of them to choose from at each spell level, and they made cantrips not at-will by default. I wouldn't mind the reduced number of spell slots if they addressed those issues.

 

[slobo777]

There are alot of things to take into consideration when answering this question, such as:

How many spell levels are there?

How many total spells are available? D&D typically has hundreds of spells.

How narrow are the spells? For example, are things like minor image, silent image, major image, programmed image, etc. all separate spells, or is there just one "phantom image" spell that covers all of those things? Alot of spells could be consolidated, in which case I would be more comfortable with fewer spell slots.

Does this number include cantrips?

My preferred number of daily spells would probably be somewhere around 10, assuming there weren't that many spell levels, the spells were broader rather than ultra specific and that you get some at-will cantrips in addition to that total.

I really liked the 3.5 warlock, for example, even though they only had 12 invocations known at 20th level. But there were also only four levels (grades) of invocations, they could all be used at-will, and they tended to be quite versatile in application, often mimicking a very versatile arcane spell or in some cases mimicking the effects of multiple spells.

The reason I protest the way they're doing things in the new playtest packet is because they're still using 9 levels of spells, the spells are still ultra-specific and there are still going to be at least a dozen of them to choose from at each spell level, and they made cantrips not at-will by default. I wouldn't mind the reduced number of spell slots if they addressed those issues.

I'd like a system with a low number of slots, where the slots were level (or below) and school. E.g. a 5th-level wizard might choose;

1 3rd-level; Evocation
2 2nd-level; Transmutation, Abjuration
2 1st-level; Abjuration, Illusion

. . . and then be able to choose at the time of casting within those schools from the spells he/she knows. This would hit a nice sweet spot for me between pre-planning (part of the game play fun of a PC caster) and flexibility (which for me feels more natural approach to magical skills in general).

 

[Leatherhead]

If I only have daily spells, I am going to need about 30. 20 for the necessities and the rest for fluff and situational picks that wouldn't otherwise be possible because it would hurt your contributions to the group too much.

If I have other options like rituals and at-wills or even a magic wand, that number is going to drop by a bunch.

 

[steeldragons]

From Steel Dragon's World of Orea fantas role-playing game...work in progress...

Spell Tier. . . .0*. . .1. . . 2. . .3. . .4. . .5
Mage Level
1 . . . . . . . . .4. . . 1. . . -. . . -. . . -. . . -
2 . . . . . . . . .4. . . 2. . . -. . . -. . . -. . . -
3 . . . . . . . . .4. . . 2. . . 1. . . -. . . -. . . -
4 . . . . . . . . .5. . . 3. . . 2. . . -.. . .-. . . -
5** . . . . . . .5. . . 3. . . 2. . . 1. . . -. . . -
6 . . . . . . . . .5. . . 4. . . 2. . . 2. . . -. . . -
7 . . . . . . . . .5. . . 4. . . 3. . . 2. . . 1. . . -
8 . . . . . . . . .5. . . 5 . . .3. . . 3. . . 2. . . -
9 . . . . . . . . .5. . . 5 . . .4. . . 3. . . 2. . . 1
10 . . . . . . . .5. . . 5. . . 4. . . 4. . . 3. . . 2

* Any/all "0 tier/cantrip" spells in the mage's spellbook can be spontaneously cast.
** As they increase in power, the mage (actually any/all "Wizard" class, so specialist mages can also) can spontaneously cast 2 tiers below their highest cast-able spell tier. Thus, beginning at 5th level, the mage gains 3rd tier spells and can spontaneously cast their 1st tier spells as well as their cantrips. At 7th level, the mage will be able to spontaneously cast their 0,1st and 2nd tier spells. etc...

And you can imagine increasing from there. 20-25 spell slots upwards toward 30 above 10th level should suit a mage character just fine and give them enough to do/"keep up with the fighter" (since that appears to be important to a certain play style) on pretty much any day-to-day basis...unless the mage finds themselves in the middle of a warzone/battlefield for 12 hours at a time...in which case, at least one or two of those slots better be reserved for "get away" spells (teleport, dim-door, etc...).

More than enough...with no "at will" power, some and increasing spontaneity/flexibility as the mage becomes more powerful, and always maintaining the resource fun and "play smart" element (much enjoyed by many spellcaster players) of having to choose/prepare.

It's what I've used/done in my homebrew for years...and likely will be what I use in 5e (aside: someone tell WotC to STOP calling it "Next", it's just stupid) unless they come up with something that really blows my mind.

--SD

 

[slobo777]

If I only have daily spells, I am going to need about 30. 20 for the necessities and the rest for fluff and situational picks that wouldn't otherwise be possible because it would hurt your contributions to the group too much.

If I have other options like rituals and at-wills or even a magic wand, that number is going to drop by a bunch.

That does presuppose that pretty much every action by a wizard character is going to be a spell. It doesn't have to be that way.

Although I would agree that falling back to dagger, staff or crossbow in combat doesn't feel particularly wizardly . . . out of combat a wizard isn't a bag-o-spells any more than a fighter is a thwacking machine.