What's Your "Sweet Spot" for a Skill system?

Pedantic

Legend
I saw I got an XP on this post, so I thought I’d follow up. The current state of things is I’m looking at 2d6 again, which means I’m going to need to look at some method for using non-fixed target numbers if I want to use more than a tiny range of modifiers (which I do). I’m thinking a base difficulty that is modified by factors such as scale, quality, and complications. The important thing is it’s not just my whim that determines the final number, which helps players reason about the game while also helping keep the numbers grounded in the game world.
I am super curious how you're handling consequences at this point. I generally find myself in the same camp, where I don't want my actions to make a situation worse, I want that to be a property of the situation I am trying to mitigate. That and my general stance I'm already paying in action economy to do things, I shouldn't be charged a second time.

I feel like the best solution if you're determined to have success at cost results is to codify the consequence before the roll, so it becomes part of risk analysis, but I can imagine it undermines how dynamic the rules feel and may seem too artificial if consequences are determined before an action is attempted.
 

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kenada

Legend
Supporter
I am super curious how you're handling consequences at this point. I generally find myself in the same camp, where I don't want my actions to make a situation worse, I want that to be a property of the situation I am trying to mitigate. That and my general stance I'm already paying in action economy to do things, I shouldn't be charged a second time.
See below regarding how consequences are incorporated into the resolution process.

Players can do a few thing to mitigate consequences. That’s currently WIP. In previous iterations, you could sacrifice or spend things to gain bonuses to the roll (e.g., extra dice). For an example, see post #275 in the five words commentary thread. I expect that will remain in the next iteration in some form. You can also opt to resist a consequence. When you do that, you take stress and make the check against taking the stress while gaining a result equivalent to a 1-degree success.

A 1-degree success is also called a “complete success”. Below that is 0-degree, which is a “mixed success”. If you get any degree of success, the referee cannot negate that success. A 0-degree success though comes with a consequence, which you can resist. Failure is typically two consequences or one big consequence that can be partially resisted. If the PC takes the consequence, it cannot negate the success. Success must be reliable for players to be able to trust it and reason about how they want to approach a situation.

Currently, I’m not entirely sure how degrees will be calculated. They will probably be based on margin. A 0-degree success would be something like any result with a margin of −2 to +0, 1-degree would be +1 to +3, and so on. I don’t know how the math of that looks though. That needs evaluated, and I haven’t had a chance to do that yet, but I hope to have that done for our next session in early December.

Teamwork is also potent. You can help someone out, giving them a bonus based on your degree of success. You can also work together, which allows the group to roll and take the best result. When working together, one of the characters is designated the lead. They have the choice of taking a penalty to the result for each failure or taking stress to buy off the failures.

I feel like the best solution if you're determined to have success at cost results is to codify the consequence before the roll, so it becomes part of risk analysis, but I can imagine it undermines how dynamic the rules feel and may seem too artificial if consequences are determined before an action is attempted.
That’s pretty much what I do. Consequences are foregrounded as part of the resolution process. Of course, obvious ones don’t have to be. If you’re jumping across slippery rocks to cross a pool of lava, slipping into the lava is an obvious risk. Everything else should be established though. While that does help with risk assessment, it’s also meant to stop the referee from pulling BS consequences out of seemingly nowhere. From an immersion perspective, one can look at it as elaborating on the intuition characters would have from actually being there.



I should note that complications are different from consequences. A complication is a transient factor like trying to navigate in a blizzard or to keep your balance on a wagon that’s gone out of control. If you can do something to negate the complication, it should stop being a factor in the difficulty. That’s the theory, anyway. I haven’t done any of the math yet because I’ve been occupied with other things.

Ideally, the difficulty should be evident from the description of the situation. The players should be able to assess it themselves, and that should match what the referee determines. As a check (to make sure everyone shares an understanding), the process of determining the difficulty should be done openly. If the PCs want to tail someone through a large crowd in the fog, we should all be able to step through the process of starting from base X, adding scale S, and complication C to get the difficulty for the check.
 

Pedantic

Legend
See below regarding how consequences are incorporated into the resolution process.

Players can do a few thing to mitigate consequences. That’s currently WIP. In previous iterations, you could sacrifice or spend things to gain bonuses to the roll (e.g., extra dice). For an example, see post #275 in the five words commentary thread. I expect that will remain in the next iteration in some form. You can also opt to resist a consequence. When you do that, you take stress and make the check against taking the stress while gaining a result equivalent to a 1-degree success.
I'm still somewhat unclear on what sets the consequences to begin with though. Presumably tasks will need to have big and small consequences determined for them, and those consequences have to be created by the GM. Or is there a list of possible consequences, drawn up from perhaps some combination of the skills used in the attempt, and/or some traits of the situation? I do think it is much clearer to the player what's happening if those consequences are laid out before they roll, and being able to turn them into a universal outcome via stress is interesting. As a player, you're essentially doing valuations on each proposed consequence, and seeing if they're more or less expensive than the base cost, and trying to take underpriced ones.
A 1-degree success is also called a “complete success”. Below that is 0-degree, which is a “mixed success”. If you get any degree of success, the referee cannot negate that success. A 0-degree success though comes with a consequence, which you can resist. Failure is typically two consequences or one big consequence that can be partially resisted. If the PC takes the consequence, it cannot negate the success. Success must be reliable for players to be able to trust it and reason about how they want to approach a situation.
Honestly, even though it's somewhat just slight of hand, it's occurs to me that I might personally find it more palatable if "success" was only ever presented as an absolute. Recasting "mixed success" as "minor failure" feels fundamentally more accurate to me.
That’s pretty much what I do. Consequences are foregrounded as part of the resolution process. Of course, obvious ones don’t have to be. If you’re jumping across slippery rocks to cross a pool of lava, slipping into the lava is an obvious risk. Everything else should be established though. While that does help with risk assessment, it’s also meant to stop the referee from pulling BS consequences out of seemingly nowhere. From an immersion perspective, one can look at it as elaborating on the intuition characters would have from actually being there.
In your example of jumping across lava, falling in can only be a "big consequence" but the space for smaller consequences feels pretty open. I can imagine losing equipment, taking some damage, getting an injury that causes more problems later, grabbing a friend and dragging them down in a panic, and so on.

The problem I have is that those aren't all equal. In the case where "getting across the river of lava" is a necessary next step, maybe you can't avoid taking on that set of risks, but if there's any other reasonable action to try, you're doing a lot of analysis to go and see if you can get a cheaper set of consequences there. That might be avoidable in some situations where you can fix consequences to the goal and then allow the players to try different approaches, but then the approach just becomes a calculation if it's not going to adjust the outcome.
I should note that complications are different from consequences. A complication is a transient factor like trying to navigate in a blizzard or to keep your balance on a wagon that’s gone out of control. If you can do something to negate the complication, it should stop being a factor in the difficulty. That’s the theory, anyway. I haven’t done any of the math yet because I’ve been occupied with other things.

Ideally, the difficulty should be evident from the description of the situation. The players should be able to assess it themselves, and that should match what the referee determines. As a check (to make sure everyone shares an understanding), the process of determining the difficulty should be done openly. If the PCs want to tail someone through a large crowd in the fog, we should all be able to step through the process of starting from base X, adding scale S, and complication C to get the difficulty for the check.
This part all makes sense to me, and I agree completely with the design direction. I think the setting of difficulties should arise entirely from the description of a situation and be completely transparent. Making risk assessments between different courses of action is, in my opinion, a core part of the play loop of TTRPGs.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
I know this is a an established line in TTRPG play, but I hate this and wish it would stop. I'm not here to play "improv game-" I'm here to play "board game+." I want actual rules for the things I'm doing, and I want to use those rules to achieve specific desired outcomes. If you don't need rules, you shouldn't write any, and if you're going to write rules, they should be better than improv prompts. You could just do improv of that was the goal, and write rules designed to prompt that instead of playing a game.
Yep, that is one way to look at TTRPGs. But then the inverse response to your desires would be that you could just play regular board games and speak "in character" for whatever game you were playing. That way you have board game rules that are balanced and work out exactly and tactically as you need for whatever the game is that you want... and you then can add a bit of character flavor on top of it. But why play a TTRPG that asks you to invent any type of response, rather than select responses from a finite list within the rules? If you only want to select actions from a list, TTRPGs can't give it to you because the narrative the DM presents is just too wide open.

All TTRPGs go both ways. They tack game rules onto improv scenes, and tack improvisation onto board games. And a happy middle will always need to be found by the designers of said TTRPGs.
 

Pedantic

Legend
Yep, that is one way to look at TTRPGs. But then the inverse response to your desires would be that you could just play regular board games and speak "in character" for whatever game you were playing. That way you have board game rules that are balanced and work out exactly and tactically as you need for whatever the game is that you want... and you then can add a bit of character flavor on top of it. But why play a TTRPG that asks you to invent any type of response, rather than select responses from a finite list within the rules? If you only want to select actions from a list, TTRPGs can't give it to you because the narrative the DM presents is just too wide open.
I don't think that's true. You can cover a ton of ground with a broad set of rules, and I think that ambitious task is what makes the TTRPG a unique field from board games. That, and I've said a few times the more salient TTRPG feature is that they're unbounded in time (or more accurately, evaluation); board games are defined by fixed game end conditions that trigger a final evaluation of victory, while TTRPGs allow the board state to carry on indefinitely, as the players set repeated new goals.

That, in my opinion, has more profound implications on their play than not having a defined action space, and frankly is where I think the improv component is necessary and interesting. Players have to come up with some means of deciding on their goals, which is plenty of space for storytelling, character building and improvisation. It doesn't need to come in to action resolution as well. Hence, board game+.
All TTRPGs go both ways. They tack game rules onto improv scenes, and tack improvisation onto board games. And a happy middle will always need to be found by the designers of said TTRPGs.
I don't fundamentally disagree, I just think we're already so far out to one side the last thing we need is more of the same. That path leads to not designing rules, because you mistakenly end up believing the ability for someone at the table to do amateur game design is good enough.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
I don't fundamentally disagree, I just think we're already so far out to one side the last thing we need is more of the same. That path leads to not designing rules, because you mistakenly end up believing the ability for someone at the table to do amateur game design is good enough.
And yet the way many players talk, they think even the professional game design isn't good enough because it isn't what they want. Just because professionals designed and tested the rules doesn't mean you want to play them. And just because amateurs at the table create house rules to give them what they want doesn't mean they are poor and not worth using.
 

pemerton

Legend
In a dice-based system, you can't represent probabilities smaller than the grain of the dice. In a d20 system, for instance, there is no way to model a failure chance lower than 5%. You have to round up to 5% or down to 0%. In a percentile system, you can get down to 1%. Anything below that, again, must be rounded either up or down.

Let's say you drive to work and back each day (two trips), 5 days a week, 50 weeks out of the year. That's 500 trips, not even considering groceries, vacations, etc. If you have a 1% chance of an accident per trip, that comes to 5 accidents per year. I'd hate to see your insurance premiums.

So the choices are:

1. Design the skill mechanic with a grain so fine that it can represent these extremely low-probability events.
2. Make everybody phenomenally incompetent at basic tasks.
3. Not bother to model failures that, by definition, are very unlikely to happen in play.
There are other design choices too. Two important ones (which don't need to be mutually exclusive) are:

4. Have resolution rules whereby a failed check at the table doesn't correlate to failure at the task, in the fiction.
5. Have the trigger for making a check be something more than simply I attempt the task.​

An example of (4): in my most recent Torchbearer session, the PCs were camping and one of them wanted to smoke the flesh of the giant frogs they had killed. Mechanically, this triggered a Cook test to turn game into preserved rations. The test failed. The failure narration didn't have anything at all to say about the PC's ability as a cook; it took the form of the PCs' camp being brought to an unexpected end by the arrival of bandits trying to take them prisoner.

Another example of (4), from a rulebook rather than actual play, is the example skill challenge in the 4e D&D Rules Compendium (p 163). The PCs are trying to identify a building, as part of an urban investigation. The GM calls for a Streetwise check. The player fails the check, which triggers failure at the skill challenge, and the GM narrates the PCs being interrupted in their investigation by hostile NPCs whom they had brushed off earlier in the challenge.

The main example of (5) that I'm familiar with, from multiple RPGs, is "say 'yes' or roll the dice": a check is only called for if something is at stake in the situation that relates to the overarching/underlying theme or conflict.

I know this is a an established line in TTRPG play, but I hate this and wish it would stop. I'm not here to play "improv game-" I'm here to play "board game+." I want actual rules for the things I'm doing, and I want to use those rules to achieve specific desired outcomes. If you don't need rules, you shouldn't write any, and if you're going to write rules, they should be better than improv prompts. You could just do improv of that was the goal, and write rules designed to prompt that instead of playing a game.
RPG rules can do more than provide "improv prompts" while also serving a different purpose from "board game+" - namely, they can be the basis for introducing content that would not be introduced via improv:
One of my kids likes to play imagination games - she and her friends all pretend to be other people (often superheroes) and do exciting and interesting things.

These clearly have a lot in common with RPGing. But they don't have rules - disagreements about what happens next are just resolved by people talking it over and reaching (or sometimes not reaching) agreement.

So why do RPGs have rules?

Some of the best answers to this question that I know come from Vincent Baker (here, here and here):

Roleplaying is negotiated imagination. In order for any thing to be true in game, all the participants in the game (players and GMs, if you've even got such things) have to understand and assent to it. When you're roleplaying, what you're doing is a) suggesting things that might be true in the game and then b) negotiating with the other participants to determine whether they're actually true or not. . . .

Mechanics might model the stuff of the game world, that's another topic, but they don't exist to do so. They exist to ease and constrain real-world social negotiation between the players at the table. That's their sole and crucial function.

*********

Some very good designers consider the assignment of authority to be the point of rpg design. I do not.

As a designer, it's my job to make as sure as possible that the game won't break down into moment-to-moment negotiations about raw assent despite the game's rules and the players' upfront commitment to them. But the brute assignment of authority is NOT how to accomplish that.

When my games assign authority they do so in strict service to what I consider the real point: setting expectations and granting permission.

*********

if all your formal rules do is structure your group's ongoing agreement about what happens in the game, they are a) interchangeable with any other rpg rules out there, and b) probably a waste of your attention. Live negotiation and honest collaboration are almost certainly better. . . .

As far as I'm concerned, the purpose of an rpg's rules is to create the unwelcome and the unwanted in the game's fiction. The reason to play by rules is because you want the unwelcome and the unwanted - you want things that no vigorous creative agreement would ever create. And it's not that you want one person's wanted, welcome vision to win out over another's - that's weak sauce. No, what you want are outcomes that upset every single person at the table. You want things that if you hadn't agreed to abide by the rules' results, you would reject.

If you don't want that - and I believe you when you say you don't! - then live negotiation and honest collaboration are a) just as good as, and b) a lot more flexible and robust than, whatever formal rules you'd use otherwise.

The challenge facing rpg designers is to create outcomes that every single person at the table would reject, yet are compelling enough that nobody actually does so. If your game isn't doing that, like I say it's interchangeable with the most rudimentary functional game design, and probably not as fun as good freeform.​

In summary: on this account, the function of RPG rules is to help mediate and constrain the process of agreeing on the shared fiction; and not just by assigning authority ("It's your turn now to say what happens next") but by shaping what is said so that it is surprising and even unwelcome to all participants.
 

And yet the way many players talk, they think even the professional game design isn't good enough because it isn't what they want. Just because professionals designed and tested the rules doesn't mean you want to play them. And just because amateurs at the table create house rules to give them what they want doesn't mean they are poor and not worth using.
RPGs are more art than science, IMO. The great designers have a feel for both the nuts & bolts, and for what their audience wants. They are most akin to chefs, building a recipe with an eye for the customer's appetites.
 

kenada

Legend
Supporter
I'm still somewhat unclear on what sets the consequences to begin with though. Presumably tasks will need to have big and small consequences determined for them, and those consequences have to be created by the GM. Or is there a list of possible consequences, drawn up from perhaps some combination of the skills used in the attempt, and/or some traits of the situation? I do think it is much clearer to the player what's happening if those consequences are laid out before they roll, and being able to turn them into a universal outcome via stress is interesting. As a player, you're essentially doing valuations on each proposed consequence, and seeing if they're more or less expensive than the base cost, and trying to take underpriced ones.
The process still works more or less as described in this post. When a player indicates they want something, the referee enumerates possible consequences. If you can’t do that, there’s nothing at stake, and the PC gets what they want. If you can, then the procedure continues. There may be some back and forth as the player decides on the approach and method, and the referee notes changes in consequences as appropriate. That’s okay. This process isn’t supposed to be adversarial. No one result should be unexpected.

Honestly, even though it's somewhat just slight of hand, it's occurs to me that I might personally find it more palatable if "success" was only ever presented as an absolute. Recasting "mixed success" as "minor failure" feels fundamentally more accurate to me.
I used to use “partial success”, but I settled on “mixed success”. I want to emphasize that there is still “success” even if there might be a rider along with it, so I don’t know that I’d want to call it something implying failure foremost. I know some players don’t like any idea of failure being mixed with success, but going completely binary is not really an option. Degrees are important for consequences and clocks. Margins are also used but so far only for defining degrees and as damage in combat (which was adjusted with the dice change, but that’s another topic).

In your example of jumping across lava, falling in can only be a "big consequence" but the space for smaller consequences feels pretty open. I can imagine losing equipment, taking some damage, getting an injury that causes more problems later, grabbing a friend and dragging them down in a panic, and so on.
I’ve attempted to put some structure around consequences, but it’s pretty rough still. The following is (more or less) what I have in my notes right now. I’ve experimented with some other ideas as well such as having a consequence that modifies the danger modifier used for event checks (e.g., make a lot of noise → +danger → more likely for trouble to show up).
  • Baseline (analogous to a “soft move” in PbtA games):
    • Complications: add new requirements, create or tick a clock as foregrounded (1 tick), foreshadow worse complications or have foreshadowed ones happen;
    • Deal 1d6 damage; or
    • Impose a transient condition (to the next roll): to their person, to their gear, to a clock (ticks at +1 tick).
  • Aggregate (analogous to a “hard move”):
    • Two baseline consequences (effectively one baseline per degree of failure);
    • Worse complications: change the situation (buff monsters, new threat, lost opportunity, etc); change relationships (new enemies, lost friends, etc); create a clock or tick a clock as foregrounded (2 ticks).
    • Deal max harm [since I’m changing the system only to use d6s, I’m thinking of making this 1d6 per degree of failure];
    • Impose a condition (for at least the remainder of the 10-minute turn if not longer): to their person, to their gear (e.g., breaking or losing it), to a clock (ticks at +2 ticks).
Everything’s still pretty rough though. Once I’m finally happy-ish with the core dice mechanics, I need to start organizing things and making them easy to find. Right now they’re just a bunch of documents and outlines in Scrivener. 😅

The problem I have is that those aren't all equal. In the case where "getting across the river of lava" is a necessary next step, maybe you can't avoid taking on that set of risks, but if there's any other reasonable action to try, you're doing a lot of analysis to go and see if you can get a cheaper set of consequences there. That might be avoidable in some situations where you can fix consequences to the goal and then allow the players to try different approaches, but then the approach just becomes a calculation if it's not going to adjust the outcome.
Hopefully the above helps clarify. Until the dice are rolled, the action isn’t committed, so the method and approach can be adjusted, or the attempt can be aborted. It’s worth noting that the method is somewhat prescribed by the system. Skills are definitionally about certain things, and if you what you want implies a certain skill, there’s normally no way around that. If what you’re doing involves climbing a tree, there aren’t many ways you’re doing that without using Athleticism.

For example, Dingo has a ring of plant control. It has a rank (+1), so he can use the ring as the method instead of his Athleticism skill. Perhaps he might try to have the tree help him up instead of trying to climb it (so ring + Willpower instead of Athleticism + Dexterity or Strength). He still needs to roll because checks are about outcomes not tasks (and because magical methods aren’t privileged over non-magical ones). Did Dingo get what he wanted? Were there any consequences? The referee’s not allowed to decide that.

There’s an inherit conflict of interest between being an adjudicator and being a player (of monsters, NPCs, the world, etc). Various games address that in different ways. Some are okay. Some I don’t like. My goal here is to explore having a small framework that systematizes when you are adjudicating and when you are playing. It’s mostly worked, though I had a situation a few sessions ago during which I realized I had a gap.

In that session, Dingo went to talk to Natalia, an ally of the party who is also a vampire. The party has mixed feelings about that. She’s been a good ally, but Deirdre kinds of hates her (but she’s not strong enough yet to do anything about it). However, they did kill one of her minions, and Natalia is suspicious. That part is put to mechanics (a clock, currently). While Dingo was talking to her, I realized I wanted to have Natalia push him, but I hadn’t actually considered how to operationalize that.

Those who play other games may say, “the GM can just make a ruling.” Sometimes when I realize I have a gap, I try to figure out something on the spot and document it for examination later. This is a WIP, so sometimes you have to make up something to keep the session moving even if the goal is to have a robust engine, but I just didn’t have a good idea at the time (since NPCs don’t usually make checks).

For the session after that, I tried changing the system to run everything as PvP. The idea was any particularly character played by the referee could be delegated to another player, and it should run the same way regardless. It sounded really neat in theory and played like crap at the table. It made some checks feel weird due to the way they interacted with opposition, and it made an attempt to escape from ettins feel really bad due to dice luck.

So the plan is to find another way to fill that gap. Maybe NPCs can impose consequences or have some way to go on the “attack”. They do have a rank, so I could add that to a roll. Maybe I need to extend the idea of conflict beyond combat (while maybe not quite going so regimented). I suppose it depends on whether there are larger stakes when that happens. I’ve still got a few weeks to figure that out before our next session. 😄
 

aramis erak

Legend
In a dice-based system, you can't represent probabilities smaller than the grain of the dice. In a d20 system, for instance, there is no way to model a failure chance lower than 5%. You have to round up to 5% or down to 0%. In a percentile system, you can get down to 1%. Anything below that, again, must be rounded either up or down.
Only if you stick to ONE level of roll...
for example, a 1990s game using a 1d20 roll had a special case on a 1: check 1d20 against dex to determine fumble or not.
So the effective granularity of success is in 5% increments, but the chance of fumble was in 0.25% increments. It worked the same for crit successes, too.
(I can't recall the specific game, but it was a D&D knockoff heartbreaker...)

There are a lot of ways to do similar -
the on min or max,
  • confirm on another roll,
  • confirm on a card flip
  • fumble if next turn's/actions roll fails/succeeds
  • pay a point of some resource to avoid a fumble or buy a crit. (which depends upon the metacurrency to determine the actual percentages...)
  • count towards a fumble/crit needing some number of special rolls to actually convert to critical success/failure.
 

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