Wheel of Time?

[Darth Shoju]

As to Jordan's handling of women, I think that you could do an analysis of each of the prominent female characters and come up with a lot of commonalities.
BUT, two of them come from the Two Rivers, where the only things more stubborn than the men are the women. Add to that the fact that Nynaeve has been used to having to shout a little louder to prove herself in that environment, and you get somebody that is assertive to a fault, with next to no patience for anyone, much less those she finds foolish. On top of that, the woman can't channel without a mad-on, and she is learning to love doing this thing she's afraid of, so she keeps herself pissed-off about 85-90% of the time. Aside from all that, she's just a b h.

Egwene learned from Nynaeve, to start, and then went to the Tower, where obfuscators abound, and then went to the Wise Ones of the Aiel! These women are the most stubborn and intractible lot of a people to whom Two Rivers stubbornness is not even a patch.

Elayne Trakand is not a bully; she's royalty. She seems very kind-hearted, otherwise.
Min is somewhat of a tomboy, and is tough because of the world she grew up in, with brothers, and all. She doesn't strike me as a bully, either.

Moiraine has been an Aes Sedai for more than twenty years, aside to being very dedicated to what she has taken on as her duty. Her leading everyone around by the nose, as it were, is a function of her rather large experience versus the extreme inexperience of all of the others.

Siaun Sanche was the head of the Aes Sedai. If you don't need to be strong and unyielding to do that, I don't know when you would have to be.

Faile Bashere is the daughter of one of the greatest generals in the known world, and their women sometimes take over from their husbands who die in battle, where the women regularly accompany them.

Aviendha is, more or less, an Aiel Wise One, and was a Maiden of the Spear, before that.
All of these examples are just my observations. I can, occasionally, see the argument of "this just might be a man in a dress", but I think that Jordan has written a lot of strong women into these stories, and what you are seeing as bullying is that strength becoming visible.

One thing that I think he did overwrite, aside from the descriptions, is the miscommunication between men and women all the time. I find myself, over and over, thinking, "If you'd just tell him/her what was on your damn mind..."

Sorry for going on so long, but I wanted to say something about this when I read your first post, and I've thought about it a bit since.

I think I was the one that used the term "bully", and I mostly get that from book six where Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne all think about forcing Matt to do what they want through their magic (and I don't think that is the first time in the series either, though not always directed at Matt); further, a common mentality amongst the Aes Sedai is that everyone should show them the respect due them (for being Aes Sedai) or be forced to show that respect. I can understand why many Aes Sedai would think that way, but it would have been refreshing to see at least one of them doubt themselves now and then.

I'd agree that the female characters all have their differences in personality and motivations, but the majority of them end up behaving in very similar ways. It's fine to have a few stubborn female characters, but they *all* seem to be stubborn to a fault. In my experience, women certainly don't all come across that way, and it would have been nice if RJ had come up with some female characters that behaved in a noticeably different manner. It was his world after all, and he didn't *have* to set all the women up as stubborn and pretentious.

I did like Min and Faile though. Moiraine was cool too.

 

[Taelorn76]

One thing that I think he did overwrite, aside from the descriptions, is the miscommunication between men and women all the time. I find myself, over and over, thinking, "If you'd just tell him/her what was on your damn mind..."

That was also a big factor for me not enjoying the books as much, and sometimes even getting frustrated. But it went then just the miscommunication between men and women. There was a boat of miscommunication between the men as well. Rand and Matt not telling each other things is one that comes to mind.

 

[papastebu]

I think I was the one that used the term "bully", and I mostly get that from book six where Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne all think about forcing Matt to do what they want through their magic (and I don't think that is the first time in the series either, though not always directed at Matt); further, a common mentality amongst the Aes Sedai is that everyone should show them the respect due them (for being Aes Sedai) or be forced to show that respect. I can understand why many Aes Sedai would think that way, but it would have been refreshing to see at least one of them doubt themselves now and then.

I'd agree that the female characters all have their differences in personality and motivations, but the majority of them end up behaving in very similar ways. It's fine to have a few stubborn female characters, but they *all* seem to be stubborn to a fault. In my experience, women certainly don't all come across that way, and it would have been nice if RJ had come up with some female characters that behaved in a noticeably different manner. It was his world after all, and he didn't *have* to set all the women up as stubborn and pretentious.

I did like Min and Faile though. Moiraine was cool too.

Maybe it's just a commentary on my life and the choices I've made, but about 70-80% of the women I've known, if they thought they were being balked in any way, would have their backs as high as a cat's in a room full of dogs. Not even Mom and my three sisters escape this observation, but maybe THAT particular bit is not unusual. Think about it, you never know what they're thinking, but they expect you to KNOW. I've had more arguments, with no point that I could see, with women than I have with men. Maybe Mr. Rigny didn't have a whole lot of women that he knew well enough to make characters from.
Anyway, sorry for lumping your and shilsen's comments together, but the similar views kind of did that before I started, and I am afraid I neglected to check back.
I did make the "man in a dress" comment, but I still liked the characters, even the women. Even with people pointing these rather accurate--in the broad sense, no pun intended, at least--assessments, the series is generally great. I think that overall, the guy kept it together over about 10 or 11 thousand pages. If I could actually finish ONE book, not to mention getting it published, I think that I might just soil myself.
Thanks for getting back to me. BTW, this is my first two-page thread, even if I do have about 25% of the post-count in it.

 

[Darth Shoju]

Maybe it's just a commentary on my life and the choices I've made, but about 70-80% of the women I've known, if they thought they were being balked in any way, would have their backs as high as a cat's in a room full of dogs. Not even Mom and my three sisters escape this observation, but maybe THAT particular bit is not unusual. Think about it, you never know what they're thinking, but they expect you to KNOW. I've had more arguments, with no point that I could see, with women than I have with men. Maybe Mr. Rigny didn't have a whole lot of women that he knew well enough to make characters from.
Anyway, sorry for lumping your and shilsen's comments together, but the similar views kind of did that before I started, and I am afraid I neglected to check back.
I did make the "man in a dress" comment, but I still liked the characters, even the women. Even with people pointing these rather accurate--in the broad sense, no pun intended, at least--assessments, the series is generally great. I think that overall, the guy kept it together over about 10 or 11 thousand pages. If I could actually finish ONE book, not to mention getting it published, I think that I might just soil myself.

Hey I really enjoyed the first four books of the series. It drew me in right away and I got into the characters to point I actually cared about them (as much as one can for fictional characters in a book--still, more than I can say for most books). I guess that is why from book 6 on I found it so frustrating: I remembered how good it had been and I wanted these characters and plots I was enjoying to move along.

Thanks for getting back to me. BTW, this is my first two-page thread, even if I do have about 25% of the post-count in it.

No prob; it was my pleasure.

 

[shilsen]

All of these examples are just my observations.

Sure. And they're interesting to read, since I'm always curious to see how other readers see the same subject.

I can, occasionally, see the argument of "this just might be a man in a dress", but I think that Jordan has written a lot of strong women into these stories, and what you are seeing as bullying is that strength becoming visible.

You know, the one thing I'd never accuse Jordan of is doing the "man in a dress" syndrome, which afflicts too many male writers (and not just in fantasy). I usually find his women very distinct from his men. And he does write a lot of strong women, but unfortunately, for me that's mainly because he has a similar template for them. They're all shrews

One thing that I think he did overwrite, aside from the descriptions, is the miscommunication between men and women all the time. I find myself, over and over, thinking, "If you'd just tell him/her what was on your damn mind..."

Agreed. I think that's one of the big factors in his women seeming two-dimensional and a little too similar across the board to me. I think he actually does a better job writing female characters when they're not interacting with men, since he's more likely to treat them in a rounded fashion then and not have them descend into just filling one side in the battle of the sexes.

Sorry for going on so long, but I wanted to say something about this when I read your first post, and I've thought about it a bit since.

Like I said, it was interesting to see your perspective.

Maybe it's just a commentary on my life and the choices I've made, but about 70-80% of the women I've known, if they thought they were being balked in any way, would have their backs as high as a cat's in a room full of dogs. Not even Mom and my three sisters escape this observation, but maybe THAT particular bit is not unusual. Think about it, you never know what they're thinking, but they expect you to KNOW. I've had more arguments, with no point that I could see, with women than I have with men. Maybe Mr. Rigny didn't have a whole lot of women that he knew well enough to make characters from.

That's quite possibly the case. Personally, that's not true of the women I know and have known. Also I've always found it just as easy to understand and communicate with women as men (ironically, a big reason being that I essentially ignore gender when dealing with people, just as I ignore race, age, etc.), so for me his manner of writing them seems even weaker than it might for some others.

BTW, this is my first two-page thread, even if I do have about 25% of the post-count in it.

Well, you want a job done right...

 

[iwatt]

That was also a big factor for me not enjoying the books as much, and sometimes even getting frustrated. But it went then just the miscommunication between men and women. There was a boat of miscommunication between the men as well. Rand and Matt not telling each other things is one that comes to mind.

I must say that I understand how the miscommunication issues could get on people's nerves, but maybe growing up watching Latin American Telenovelas has added to my tolerance That is such a standard trope, that you almost start enjoying the misunderstanding's after a while. "If only he would say...:" Maybe it's a cultural thing though.

In Jordan's defense, mistrust is a big part of his world. With an active force for evil able to infiltrate anywere, trust is very lacking. Rand, Mat and Perrin know that just about anybody can be a Darkfriend. Now, certainly they should probably trust each other more, but a) I think Rand's paranoia is definitely part of his madness; He trusts Min totally though, since she is 100% loyal to him. In his eyes everybody else has an agenda b) Matt is very leery of all power weilders, and really stopped trusting Rand in book 2, c) Perrin has made it clear that his only true loyalty is to his wife. And those are the two guys Rand "knows" he can trust. Besides, he was schooled by Moraine, who I think could be a poster child for information control based on "Need to know".

But there is another point worth talking about. Female arrogance is a one of the central themes in the book (is that the right literary term BTW? My literary discussion classes are 15 years behind me and in another language). These women live 5-8 times longer than anybody else, have supernatural power that makes them demigods, and haven't had any serious competition in the last 3,000 years. If that doesn't breed arrogance, I'm not sure what will. IMO, these women should have been even more aloof and arrogant than even he portrays them, but then it would be impossible to empathize with them in any way.

BTW, not everyone is a shrew, though I agree a majority of them are. Elayne started pretty relaxed in book 1, but a little white tower goes a long way apparently. My favorite Aes Sedai after Moraine is Verin, who definitely isn't a shrew, IMO. Moraine isn't a shrew either, though she is the most manipulative woman ever born apparently

 

[jonathan swift]

Maybe it's just me, but I've seen enough relational problems and falling outs caused by lack of communication that what shocks me in fiction is when people are completely open all the time.

 

[phoenixgod2000]

But there is another point worth talking about. Female arrogance is a one of the central themes in the book (is that the right literary term BTW? My literary discussion classes are 15 years behind me and in another language). These women live 5-8 times longer than anybody else, have supernatural power that makes them demigods, and haven't had any serious competition in the last 3,000 years. If that doesn't breed arrogance, I'm not sure what will. IMO, these women should have been even more aloof and arrogant than even he portrays them, but then it would be impossible to empathize with them in any way.

BTW, not everyone is a shrew, though I agree a majority of them are. Elayne started pretty relaxed in book 1, but a little white tower goes a long way apparently. My favorite Aes Sedai after Moraine is Verin, who definitely isn't a shrew, IMO. Moraine isn't a shrew either, though she is the most manipulative woman ever born apparently

I agree with you about one of the themes being feminine arrogance. It began with The female Aes Sedi staying sane while the men went mad, but I think over the years it bled over into the nonchanneling members of both genders with men being seen as less trustworty than women because the male channelers all went mad.

A lot of female 'heroes' have had some truly ugly moments in the story towards men. Nyneave (sp) being probably the worst (why does Lan like her again?), but Elyane defintely being up there-especially towards mat in Crown of Swords when all the guy was trying to do was keep her alive. And I frankly just don't understand perrin and his wife. She needs to be offed and soon. Least likeable character in the entire series IMO.

It does, however, have to be said, that the coolest chick in the story is Brigitte the archer. That girl is awesome and isn't afraid to tell her bonded off when she needs it. One of my favorite character scenes in the later series was when Brigitte forces Elayane to apologize to
Mat for treating him like (bleep) after he rescued her from several forsaken.

I am truly going to miss Robert Jordan and his world

 

[Gentlegamer]

I want to someone to write a fan fiction where Kitiara (from Dragonlance) beats the crap out of Nynaeve and tells her to quit her bitchin'.

 

[iwatt]

It does, however, have to be said, that the coolest chick in the story is Brigitte the archer.

You are correct sir! I'd forgotten Birgitte.

I am truly going to miss Robert Jordan and his world

My thoughts exactly. The good times he's provided for me more than make up for how slow things became in books 7-10.