When Bad Things Happen to Bad People

[Prince Atom]

In my last session, the heroes discovered a fortress dug into the ground (or at least, covered over by a hill), and watched by two groups of hobgoblins.

I put in lots of nice trees and standing stones in the watchers' spots, first because it's supposed to look natural, and second because my elfish sorcerer was really getting frustrated with not having anything to hang his web spell on.

Well, he webbed up one group of hobgobs, and the heroes engaged and destroyed most of the other group. One was able to ring his hand bell and alert the fortress, however.

The entangled group kept trying to break free, and failing. Finally, the sorcerer figured out that he could bluff them into not struggling. He told them that the more they struggled, the tighter the webs would get. He beat their Sense Motive check, so they stopped struggling.

The ranger/horizon walker went over to that group after a couple of rounds, and heard their leader telling them not to worry, they'd get out of the web sometime, yadda yadda, trying to keep up morale.

I can't remember exactly what was said, but the player decided that he would rather burn stuff than try and argue them down. He flicked a tindertwig into the web, which promptly caught fire, and turned his attention to the giants who were sallying forth from the main entrance to counterattack.

The burning hobgoblins occupied the group's paladin, who was trying to put out the fire rather than let people roast alive. She was not available to damage-sponge, so the ranger/horizonwalker took most of the giants' ire. With the help of the ranger/rogue/deepwood sniper and the aforementioned sorcerer, they put down a hill giant, a skullcrusher ogre, an ettin, and a troll without dying (although the horizonwalker did dip into single-digit hit points).

So, after the game, the paladin-player told me she was thinking of retiring her paladin because she felt that she was hindering the group. I told her that I thought she played her character well (everyone else had said so), and that I privately believed that the horizonwalker's character just got frustrated and decided to burn things. If his actions take the other damage-sponge out of the entire fight, so that he has to frontline it all himself, who does he have to blame?

Do you all have any opinions on this issue? The paladin-player decided that she would wait until the next session before deciding whether to retire her character and make a new one. I don't think she should, and I would be sad if she switched characters. Is there anything you could suggest to help us smooth over this conflict?

Thanks!
TWK

 

[Particle_Man]

The paladin played well, imho. I would suggest the paladin and horizon walker players discuss the matter, but it seems like both were in character. Maybe the hw will now either be nicer to the bad guys because of a change of heart, or be nicer to the bad guys because he wants the paladin to stay in the fight, and knows the paladin will stop to help bad guys he gratuitously hurts.

 

[gizmo33]

I see an alignment-thread storm cloud on the distance.

Firstly I think you should trust your player's instincts and allow them to make up a new character. It might not help, but it's worth trying something I don't think many players would volunteer for this unless they really weren't having much fun.

Secondly, it wasn't "people" buring in the webs, it was hobgoblins - so I guess it's something that you have to make clear to the players. Are hobgoblins inevitably evil, or can they change and be convinced to become farmers? If they're always going to be evil and yet the paladin always has to try to save them from burning (but can cut their heads off with a sword) - then something seems out of whack. Many DMs, IMO, put too many unrealistic expectations on the paladin character - I don't have an opinion about whether you have or not, but it's something to watch out about.

 

[LordBOB]

honestly....as a Paladin I would of done the exact same thing. The Hob's didnt to anything to deserve to be torched and the Paladin knew this. She did the right thing b/c if she had allowed them to burn than your HW and the Paladin would be seen as evil for destroying/torturing innocent ( however innocent they might be) Hob's.

Hopefully your HW will learn from his former actions. He can continue to try and burn innocent people and let the Paladin save them while taking the Paladin out of the fight and loose a valuable PC, or not do stupid things and get the Paladin back into the fight.

I suggest telling your Paladin to stick with it a little longer. If the group doesnt change than indeed she might be a thorn in their side, though If she leaves than probably your entire party will become evil in some way. A Paladin keeps the group in check.

If she doesnt want to continue her character than theres NOTHING that you can do about it. If she starts all over than thats her loss. I dont know what your Party level is but if its 8 or better than she has been wasting valuable time.

If she doesnt like being a Paladin tell her to talk to me and i might be able to change her mind and show her the good side of playing a Paladin.

 

[IronWolf]

I would try to convince the player playing the paladin to stick with the character. To me, it sounds like the paladin was trying to make sure the prisoners of war were treated fairly and not harmed unduly. The ranger will hopefully piece together the cause and effect and realize that harming the prisoners/hobgoblins in the web is apt to pull the paladin away from the action. All some fun IC interaction in my opinion.

 

[Kesh]

Agreed. The paladin acted properly, the HW was being careless with lives. Personally, I'd sit down with each player, separately, and ask what they want out of the game. If their answers are contradictory, then you have a problem, and it needs to be discussed with the group as a whole.

It sounds like you have an instance where some players want to do the traditional hero story, while others want to kill things and take their stuff. If you can find a natural balance that keeps everyone happy, great! Some players might want to take one or the other too far, though, so you want to feel out exactly what folks are trying to do with their characters.

 

[Corsair]

Is this one of many incidents? Have comments been made by the other players? Or is the paladin player just getting sick and tired of having to cover up for other players' antics?

The answers to these questions help determine the course of action. It could just be that most of your players prefer a more chaotic approach to life and your paladin player feels a bit left out. Talk to him/her/it and see WHY they feel the need to change.

 

[Prince Atom]

Is this one of many incidents? Have comments been made by the other players? Or is the paladin player just getting sick and tired of having to cover up for other players' antics?

This is an isolated incident. I think it was brought on by the HW player's frustration at not coming up with anything to say to the hobgoblins, and perhaps a tiny little inkling of pyromania. His first character in the campaign was a pyrokineticist, after all.

It wasn't that the hobgoblins were innocent. These particular specimens were evil. But it says, "Usually lawful evil" in their entry; it's plausible that you might meet a neutral or even a good hobbie.

But what is justice? Now, the hobbies were bandits, and they did have blood on their hands, but did they deserve to fry, or did they deserve a merciful death? Which acts are justice, and which are no better than the criminals' own acts?

I think it was a pretty clear alignment infraction on the HW's part. However, it was the first, and I hope it won't be repeated. He's CG; how many such acts should I tolerate before switching his alignment?

TWK

 

[IronWolf]

But what is justice? Now, the hobbies were bandits, and they did have blood on their hands, but did they deserve to fry, or did they deserve a merciful death? Which acts are justice, and which are no better than the criminals' own acts?

All great questions... And ones that would be perfect for the paladin to bring up IC. You could easily spend half a gaming session with the characters in question addressing this issue. The ranger explaining his actions and the paladin trying to explain why they should have been kept alive.

I think it was a pretty clear alignment infraction on the HW's part. However, it was the first, and I hope it won't be repeated. He's CG; how many such acts should I tolerate before switching his alignment?

I think some of this depends on how the character plays it off. Maybe they had just reached the brink of frustration and snapped. Even good people have been known to do this in a fit of anger, rage or frustration. If it was more akin to this scenario then this may not be so alarming as much as a momentary lack of judgment.

Of course if it was done in more of a sociopathic way, with little other signs of anger or frustration, this could be something to keep an eye out for. Maybe the character is shifting, all the death and looting weakening his former place in life.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Whether the hobgoblins were evil or not isn't the point. For a paladin, prisoners of war should be treated properly. And that doesn't include burning them alive - especially when they're bound and can't escape (which makes it a particularly heinous death).

I think the paladin did the right thing. I'd be more concerned with a ranger lighting uncontrolled fires in a forest. If there's any bad RP, it would be from the player who is carrying over old traits from previous characters (unless he's reincarnated or something).