When Combat starts

[kanithardm]

When does combat technically start? If the enemy is behind the door and you know it can you ready actions? I always allowed it, but everyone seems to disagree. For example, the rogue snuck ahead and spotted a goblin patrol without being seen. He ran back to the party and the all readied actions for when the goblins came. I counted them as not flat-footed and aware as long as the goblins came through the entrance they were guarding. Is this okay?

 

[William_2]

DMG pages 21-25 are, I think, the best rules coverage of this topic; making your final interpretation from them takes a bit of work, as some other threads here have shown recently. It is a good place to start, though; much better than anything the PHB offers, I think.

 

[ThirdWizard]

The way I do it: whenever a character initiates a combat action, I say roll initiative. And combat has started.

(alternately I might say "make spot checks," "make listen checks," or possibly "make sense motive checks")

 

[Bront]

I only use the 'Flat footed till your first action' durring the suprise round. If it's not a suprise, I don't see why the poor dwarf who rolled a 1 has to be flat footed AND go last.

 

[sfedi]

I only use the 'Flat footed till your first action' durring the suprise round. If it's not a suprise, I don't see why the poor dwarf who rolled a 1 has to be flat footed AND go last.

To make rogues and Improved Initiative worthwhile.

 

[sfedi]

When does combat technically start? If the enemy is behind the door and you know it can you ready actions? I always allowed it, but everyone seems to disagree. For example, the rogue snuck ahead and spotted a goblin patrol without being seen. He ran back to the party and the all readied actions for when the goblins came. I counted them as not flat-footed and aware as long as the goblins came through the entrance they were guarding. Is this okay?

I second that the best place to look is the DMG, and analyze those rules.

When I start combat is tricky to put it into words.

I'll give an example.

A, B and C is one group of combatants.
X, Y and Z are the other group of combatants.

A detects the presence of X and Y.
A goes back to inform B, but makes a slight sound, heard by X.
X doesn't treat the sound as a danger, although he does investigate it.
X doesn't see anything.
A informs B, but B, hasn't detected the presence of foes yet.
A and B wait.
Y approaches. And is heard only by A.
Y appears and now A and B see Y. Although B didn't heard him, now he sees Y.
Y doesn;t see A and B.
B in his anxiety, attacks yells. A wasn't prepared for this. B didn't coordinate, nor he made it obvious what actions he would take.
Y hears B, and considers it a threat.
Combat started, and the surprise round was B yelling.
Now everyone rolls initiative and each combatant is flat footed until they act.

 

[William_2]

It’s a good example, In that it is complicated, and there is room for interpretation. Let us commence arguing about it!

I find it a little hard to place the process of players making appropriate decisions in this example. If it is during a surprise round that B yells, than that round must have started when B became aware of the unaware Y. Perfect time for a surprise round, I agree. At which point the DM should determine whether A also sees Y. If so, initiative is rolled for A and B who then act during the surprise round. In the example, it seems like only B seems Y, even though that is a little unlikely given the scenario. Still, assuming that is the case, the DM tells that player: “You spot ‘Y’, who does not seem to notice you- do you do anything?”
In the example, B’s answer would have to be “I shout, and then wait to see what happens” in order for that to be what happened in the surprise round. I find this pretty unlikely. Yelling is a free action for B, who is still entitled to a standard action. The DM does not have to say that, but only ask “What do you do?”

Finally, if B had a surprise round, and thus the chance to act, he is NOT flat-footed, even if he did not take any kind of move action. House rules aside, that is very clear in the rules.

 

[werk]

If the enemy is behind the door and you know it can you ready actions? I always allowed it, but everyone seems to disagree. For example, the rogue snuck ahead and spotted a goblin patrol without being seen. He ran back to the party and the all readied actions for when the goblins came. I counted them as not flat-footed and aware as long as the goblins came through the entrance they were guarding. Is this okay?

I would rule the same way, since the rogue was not seen, but it is somewhat conditional.

To clarify, I read your post such that the rogue was scouting ahead, and came to a door. He listened at the door and could hear 'someone' coming, he then went back and told the party who are making 'ready' to attack when 'someone' comes through the door.

That sounds like an ambush to me. Give the party a spot on the door opening, low DC, if they see it, they get to roll init for surprise round.

If the goblins are aware at all, then initiative as usual.

I would not allow readied actions before regular combat, but preparing an ambush or jumping surprise is not a readied action in my book.


If the rogue hears 'someone' on the other side of the door, but they are not coming out, then the best the party could do is surprise the goblins, which is still nice.

Ambush and surprise allow a standard action, so it's pretty much the same effect as a readied action, but if you surprise and win init, you get a standard, then can ready next round if you like.

I'm feeling stupid because I can't find ambush in the 3.5 SRD...was it removed from 3.0 to 3.5? I don't see anything in the changes doc...

 

[William_2]

I’m not sure they refer so much to ambush- it is included, I think, in the broad category of only one side being aware and preparing. My reading of the 3.5 rules on those situations gives me basically the same opinions as you have. Again, it is those pages form 21 to 25 or 26 in the DMG that provide most of this, and do a pretty good job of covering it, I think.

I particularly agree that these situations end up allowing a standard action when direct contact begins; the surprise round is described this way, but so is starting an encounter without a formal surprise round, but a standard action for the pre-prepared side. I only really picked up on this recently; I'm not sure why the same mechanic is described twice, once as surprise, once as something else. You certainly could never sort it out from the PHB, and I think that may be one reason why discussions along these lines get confusing.
The split of the rules between the PHB and the DMG seem to result in only DMs having a good grip on these rules, while players might have only a broad idea. And perhaps that is deliberate, but everyone who plays seems to like to know all the rules these days. If that is the goal, players need to be familiar with certain sections of the DMG.

 

[moritheil]

There has been much discussion on this topic already.

Check out this thread for various arguments:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=129569