When Combat starts

[sfedi]

It’s a good example, In that it is complicated, and there is room for interpretation. Let us commence arguing about it!

Wheeee!!!!

I find it a little hard to place the process of players making appropriate decisions in this example.

Why is it relevant?

If it is during a surprise round that B yells, than that round must have started when B became aware of the unaware Y.

Not necessarily.
If B chose not to act, then combat wouldn't have started.
Jus as when A detected X and Y.
When someone detects another, the "detector" has the choice of starting combat (with surprise).
In other words, the combat does not start until someone able to start it, choose to start it.
More on this later.

Perfect time for a surprise round, I agree. At which point the DM should determine whether A also sees Y.

It was stated in the example that when Y came in, both, A and B saw him.

If so, initiative is rolled for A and B who then act during the surprise round.

Again, not necessarily, because they may want to wait.

In the example, it seems like only B seems Y, even though that is a little unlikely given the scenario.

Look:
...
A informs B, but B, hasn't detected the presence of foes yet.
A and B wait.
Y approaches. And is heard only by A.
Y appears and now A and B see Y. Although B didn't heard him, now he sees Y.
Y doesn;t see A and B.
...

Still, assuming that is the case, the DM tells that player: “You spot ‘Y’, who does not seem to notice you- do you do anything?”

Sure, that sort of options where happening all the time during this example.
Note that from the first moment, when A spot X and Y combat could have started.

In the example, B’s answer would have to be “I shout, and then wait to see what happens” in order for that to be what happened in the surprise round. I find this pretty unlikely. Yelling is a free action for B, who is still entitled to a standard action. The DM does not have to say that, but only ask “What do you do?”

My bad. You are right, speaking is a free action.
I considered that C was far away, and in order to make the shout louder, (DC -30) B took a standard action (house rule).
Any way, the point is that B, unilaterally acts, "wasting" the surprise round.
He could as well have attacked, denying his comrade, A, to take advantage of the surprise round.

Finally, if B had a surprise round, and thus the chance to act, he is NOT flat-footed, even if he did not take any kind of move action. House rules aside, that is very clear in the rules.

You are right again, I forgot to mention that B wasn't flat-footed.

One more thing.
Note that the other side must consider that there's a threat in order to start combat.
If Y wouldn't consider B a threat when he yelled, then combat wouldn't have started there.
But it would have started when A popped out of his hiding place and shot Y.
(in that case, A would have used his surprise round, maybe B could use it too if they have coordinated).

 

[William_2]

Oh yea, sorry, it did say that A and B both see Y! My take remains the same, then: initiative is rolled for those two, and they act in order, each getting a standard action. While B might act first, and waste his action by doing nothing, that does not in any way limit A’s ability to act. A gets a standard action to do as they please. Both of them do indeed act unilaterally- if they want to try and act in accord, that is great, but if B does something on their own, A remains free to do likewise.
Which is why the issue of players performing actions is relevant- your example has a player, A, who has a standard action, but there is no mention of what they do, implying that they chose to do nothing, which is highly unlikely.

This encounter does not start with any decision on the part of A or B- it starts when they see Y, which is relatively involuntary, and not under their control. They have one opportunity to take a standard action before initiative is rolled. If they do nothing, they may end up not even going first. Doing nothing does not mean that an encounter has not started. It may mean you wasted your chance to get an advantage, but you won’t prevent the encounter from happening by doing nothing. By hiding or disappearing or the like, you can make an encounter very short, but you will still have acted.

"(in that case, A would have used his surprise round, maybe B could use it too if they have coordinated)." I think that they each qualify for a surprise round on their own- they don't have to be acting together. they don't even have to know that each other exist in order to act in the same surprise round- they just have to be there, notice an opponent when the opponent doesn't notice them, and decide to act.

 

[sfedi]

My take remains the same, then: initiative is rolled for those two, and they act in order, each getting a standard action. While B might act first, and waste his action by doing nothing, that does not in any way limit A’s ability to act. A gets a standard action to do as they please.
Both of them do indeed act unilaterally- if they want to try and act in accord, that is great, but if B does something on their own, A remains free to do likewise.

In this example A was waiting, and didn't expect for B to jump to action (that's why I put that "in his anxiety B yells").
In this case, would you handle it the same as you described?
Wouldn't A be as surprised as Y?

Which is why the issue of players performing actions is relevant- your example has a player, A, who has a standard action, but there is no mention of what they do, implying that they chose to do nothing, which is highly unlikely.

Note that I considered A surprised too.

This encounter does not start with any decision on the part of A or B- it starts when they see Y, which is relatively involuntary, and not under their control.

Why?
What would have happened if they chose to wait?
What if they chose to wai, and Y left?
What if they chose to wai, Y spotted them, bluffed them, and jumped on them? Wouldn't Y gain surprise then?

They have one opportunity to take a standard action before initiative is rolled. If they do nothing, they may end up not even going first. Doing nothing does not mean that an encounter has not started.

Are you sure about this?
If a rogue creeps to spy on a group, and he is watching them, you rule that a combat has started?
In that case, in my example, the combat should have begun when A spot X and Y, wouldn't it?

It may mean you wasted your chance to get an advantage, but you won’t prevent the encounter from happening by doing nothing. By hiding or disappearing or the like, you can make an encounter very short, but you will still have acted.

I don't get it.

A and B are hidden, and spot Y.
A and B roll initiative.
They do nothing, keeping still and hidden.
Next round, Y rolls initiative too.
Suppose he goes last.
A and B still do nothing.
Now it;s Y's turn.
He draws his sword?
He keeps doing what he was doing?
He know she's in combat? How?
What does it mean that Y rolls initiative?

"(in that case, A would have used his surprise round, maybe B could use it too if they have coordinated)." I think that they each qualify for a surprise round on their own- they don't have to be acting together. they don't even have to know that each other exist in order to act in the same surprise round- they just have to be there, notice an opponent when the opponent doesn't notice them, and decide to act.

Mmm...
then Y could act as well.
Why couldn't he?
Or even C.

 

[William_2]

Oh! OK, if A was surprised then I agree, it is all B!


Some good point there, for sure. It is a quirky topic, I find.

I think the most general point I’m trying to make is that in any case where people come into proximity and some are aware and others are not, the ones that are aware will get a standard action before the unaware act once direct contact occurs. They may also get intervening rounds where they can prepare, as in both examples above.

In the original example, I don’t think the party can Ready actions, but they can be aware and “ready”, and hence get a standard action, and not be FFed, before the Goblins act.

In the A, B, Y case, I think it is likely that A and B should be in the same situation. If A is already aware, it seems odd that they would then be surprised. B, then Y, then initiative is possible; but B and A then initiative seems more likely. Definitely a DM call, of course- I think we are looking at he rules essentially the same way.

And yea- where is C?!