When did gnomes fall from grace?

[LordMelquiades]

Money not mouth

What do you think of this as an alternate set of racial attributes? Note that this is specifically designed aorund gnomes as they appear in Eberron. It largely and deliberately ignores their past (at least, their past as according to Keith Baker in his Dragonshard articles on gnomes), to focus on mechnics appropriate for their current role in the Eberron world. The bits in italics are where I've changed from the SRD.

Proposed Eberron gnome traits
+2 Charisma, –2 Strength.
Small: As a Small creature, a gnome gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but he uses smaller weapons than humans use, and his lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character.
Gnome base land speed is 20 feet.
Low-Light Vision: A gnome can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. He retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
Weapon Familiarity: Gnomes may treat gnome hooked hammers as martial weapons rather than exotic weapons.
+2 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment (compulsion) effects.
Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against enchantment (compulsion) spells cast by gnomes. This adjustment stacks with those from similar effects.
+1 racial bonus on attack rolls against kobolds and goblinoids.
+4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type. Any time a creature loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class, such as when it’s caught flat-footed, it loses its dodge bonus, too.
+2 racial bonus on Diplomacy checks.
+2 racial bonus on Gather information checks.
Automatic Languages: Common and Gnome. Bonus Languages: Aquan, Auran, Ignan, Giant, Goblin, Orc and Terran.
Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—tongues (humanoid only, duration 1 minute). A gnome with a Charisma score of at least 10 also has the following spell-like abilities: 1/day—lullaby, message, prestidigitation. Caster level 1st; save DC 10 + gnome’s Cha modifier + spell level.
Favored Class: Bard. A multiclass gnome’s bard class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty.

This points towards the whole bard thing. An alternative (and a good one) is to point towards the gnomes' ability with elemental binding and the crafting of exotic stuff (airships etc), but I haven't attempted that here (except a small nod in the languages section). Such an angle could include skill bonuses around crafting, and save and DC bonus around Conjuration (summoning) magic perhaps?

 

[LordMelquiades]

Halfies

On a similar vein, and since they've been mentioned a lot in this thread, here's my Eberron take on the halfling. These guys require way less adjusting. Again, italicised text is where I've made changes:

· +2 Dexterity, –2 Strength.
· Small: As a Small creature, a halfling gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but she uses smaller weapons than humans use, and her lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character.
· Halfling base land speed is 20 feet.
· +2 racial bonus on Handle Animal, Hide, Move Silently and Ride checks.
· +1 racial bonus on all saving throws.
· +2 morale bonus on saving throws against fear: This bonus stacks with the halfling’s +1 bonus on saving throws in general.
· +1 racial bonus on attack rolls with thrown weapons and slings.
· Automatic Languages: Common and Halfling. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, and Orc.
· Favored Class: Ranger. A multiclass halfling’s rogue class does not count when determining whether she takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing.

This emphasises their Mongol-like nomadic master riders slant, but retaining the skill bonuses for Hide and Move Silently keeps that whole stealthy, native American thing. Possibly Hide and MS could be swapped-out for, say, Balance and Tumble, to give them a more dextrous spin. Plus I changed favoured class - ranger seems more appropriate.

 

[Hellcow]

No animal handling, no ride bonus... which is okay, since Rogue's don't even get Ride. I'm not sure why Climb is really useful in a big open field, or why Move Silently is useful when you're mounted...

Well, only a tiny percentage of the population IS mounted. The fact that the Talenta haflings domesticate dinosaurs is something that seems unusual in comparison to urban halflings, but humans domesticate dogs and horses, and they don't get bonuses to Handle Animal or Ride. Only warriors ride raptors, and not even all of them do. But as small hunters relying on speed instead of strength and dealing with a rugged environment, Move Silently, Hide, and Climb are skills that every Talenta halfling may find useful. (As for climb, the Talenta Plains, despite being "plains", are not perfectly flat, and the ability to scale cliffs, tors, or for that matter trees can always come in handy).

But hey, what do I know about Eberron?

I'm a big believer in people adjusting the rules to whatever best suits their campaign. Certainly, in Eberron, the gnomes are oriented around the idea of the bard - with the idea that you can be a bard without perform skill, and still possess a touch of magic, excellent social skills, and a wide range of knowledge. We made the decision to leave the PHB races exactly as they were mechanically, so that you could use the core books as is, and for me they all work as is (I've gone into long discussions on the WotC boards why I don't think the Valenar or Talentans need ranger as favored class, so check there if you care). But even if you're playing in Eberron, if you want to change them to fit the setting - the whole point of the game is to have fun!

 

[Morgenstern]

Elves were historically just fairy tales too, but once Tolkien got hold of that they were jumpstarted into the spotlight and haven't left.

LOL. This statement is of course only possible because no one reads Norse mythology in grade school anymore (if one feels "mythology" and "fairy tales" to be separate animals - usually no one called Thor's on-and-off allies fairies and lived ). Tolkien's elves and dwarves are lifted whole from there in my experience.

A little footnote: There are gnomes in Tolkien's work (in the Simirilion IIRC). The apple of D&D didn't even bounce in its short roll from the tree .

I haven't finished reading this thread, but I keep envisioning a new racial write up reading this. One involving a Tiny race that can speak the elemental Earth language and to any animal-type creature with a burrow speed as a permanent ability. Probably has Wizard as a favored class. Doesn't seem like that would be hard to flesh out into a ECL +0 race at all.

 

[Sigg]

A little footnote: There are gnomes in Tolkien's work (in the Simirilion IIRC). The apple of D&D didn't even bounce in its short roll from the tree .

And on a related note...

http://www.petitiononline.com/gognomes/petition.html

 

[BWP]

A little footnote: There are gnomes in Tolkien's work (in the Simirilion IIRC). The apple of D&D didn't even bounce in its short roll from the tree .

Uh, no. There is a type of dwarf mentioned in The Silmarillion called "petty dwarves", who aren't really very clearly defined anywhere but they're basically a type of dwarf and not really anything at all like D&D gnomes.

Tolkien's pre-Silmarillion writings used the term "gnome" specifically for Noldorin Elves. It was not in any sense an attempt to equate them with the "little people", it was simply an alternative to "elf" that drew on folklore. However, Tolkien eventually abandoned the name in favour of calling all the elves "elves" (differentiated by the different tribes, i.e., Sindarin, Noldorin, etc.), partly at least because people associated the word "gnome" too strongly with those small big-nosed chaps who sit in the garden.

I should add that for a long time Tolkien wasn't especially enamoured of the term "elf", either, partly because in Norse tradition the elves and the dwarves were essentially identical (and he wanted them to be distinct races), and partly because people associated "elves" with small pixie-like critters. Tolkien's elves were not "dwarves" and they certainly weren't "pixies", but he also wanted them to be "remembered" by humans in folklore, and he eventually decided that "elf" was as good as he was going to get. The rest, as they say, is history.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Well, only a tiny percentage of the population IS mounted. The fact that the Talenta haflings domesticate dinosaurs is something that seems unusual in comparison to urban halflings, but humans domesticate dogs and horses, and they don't get bonuses to Handle Animal or Ride. Only warriors ride raptors, and not even all of them do. But as small hunters relying on speed instead of strength and dealing with a rugged environment, Move Silently, Hide, and Climb are skills that every Talenta halfling may find useful. (As for climb, the Talenta Plains, despite being "plains", are not perfectly flat, and the ability to scale cliffs, tors, or for that matter trees can always come in handy).

But hey, what do I know about Eberron?

I'm a big believer in people adjusting the rules to whatever best suits their campaign. Certainly, in Eberron, the gnomes are oriented around the idea of the bard - with the idea that you can be a bard without perform skill, and still possess a touch of magic, excellent social skills, and a wide range of knowledge. We made the decision to leave the PHB races exactly as they were mechanically, so that you could use the core books as is, and for me they all work as is (I've gone into long discussions on the WotC boards why I don't think the Valenar or Talentans need ranger as favored class, so check there if you care). But even if you're playing in Eberron, if you want to change them to fit the setting - the whole point of the game is to have fun!

I understand the "core stats" aspect of Eberron, and I'm sure you can work to justify anything that is present, but really you shouldn't have to justify things if they're intuitive to the material. If the justification for Talenta halflings having a Climb bonus is because "the ability to climb cliffs..." is handy, well that'd really apply to just about everywhere I'd think. Sure humans have domestic dogs and horses, but in general as a race, those are not a significant part of their culture. If there's a culture built around a mounted society, then they would indeed more proficiency in riding IMO.

I'm of the mind that the decision to leave these stats for halflings was more based on the idea to not change something unless absolutely needed, rather than any idea that the stats were still appropriate for the race in question.

So yes, Valenar elves may not require Ranger as favored class, but at the same time, it may be more appropriate for them than Wizard.

But really, it's not a problem. I don't hate Talenta Halflings because they're rogueish climbers, I just think it's more inappropriate than Gnome Badger Talkers.

 

[Klaus]

The Talenta Plains are a "culture" built around riding and a nomadic lifestyle. But the halfling "race" isn't. Halflings don't Climb and Jump better because they've been doing it a lot. They do it better because their small, compact bodies are akin to the body of an olympic gymnast, with stronger muscles than their size would indicate.

Halflings are innately stealthy, and the race advanced along a path that let it compensate for its lack of sheer brawn, i.e. attacking with surprise to cause most damage to unaware foes. The entire race can take easier to the path of the rogue, even if their culture breeds more rangers than rogues. Ditto for valenar elves and wizards.

Look at humans. You can have a mongol-like mounted warrior from a nomadic culture or a sophisticated scholar from a Renaissance city. Yet they have the exact same racial traits. This cultural difference is represented through class, feats and skills. Same goes for Khorvaire and Talenta halflings.

 

[MacMathan]

This is why Gnomes were excluded from the early playtest builds of 3e.
My guess is there arose sufficient fervor/gnome-love to force them back in.
As I remember it though, the re-introduction was fairly late in the 3e beta cycle.

 

[LordMelquiades]

We made the decision to leave the PHB races exactly as they were mechanically, so that you could use the core books as is, and for me they all work as is

Sure, I understand this, and I think it was a sensible approach, totally in keeping with the spirit of the exercise, but of course...

I'm a big believer in people adjusting the rules to whatever best suits their campaign.

Well yes.

Certainly, in Eberron, the gnomes are oriented around the idea of the bard - with the idea that you can be a bard without perform skill, and still possess a touch of magic, excellent social skills, and a wide range of knowledge.

I have no argument with any of this. In my alternate take on them above, I changed the magical focus from illusions to enchantments to emphasise this - not strictly necessary, but it scratches an itch of mine. But... I'm sorry, I know I should let it go but I can't get past it... burrowing animals? Maybe ferrets have a lovely singing voice?

for me [the PHB races] all work as is (I've gone into long discussions on the WotC boards why I don't think the Valenar or Talentans need ranger as favored class, so check there if you care).

I care I care! Thanks, I shall look. Is it in the 'Ask KB' thread?

But even if you're playing in Eberron, if you want to change them to fit the setting - the whole point of the game is to have fun!

And may I say I am having a lot of fun so far with Eberron, thank you very much.

But hey, what do I know about Eberron?

Yeah, who are you anway?

Look one last thing since you're here Keith (see, bang on inanely for long enough and the big hitters come on to sort you out!), Eberron gnomes are the master elemental binders, right? Considerations you've raised above notwithstanding, I'd be interested in a re-worked gnome with mechanics to support this function, but I've no idea how elemental binding works. You are probably going to tell me to wait for Magic of Eberron , but any pointers would be useful. Those SRD elemental gems have Summon Nature's Ally V (or is it IV?) as a pre-req, but I'm guessing the Zil binders are using quite a different approach.

I guess this is more suited to another thread. But still...

Cheers all