D&D 5E When do you get advantage from attacking while unseen?

[S'mon]

I'd give Bluff check for Advantage.

 

[MrHotter]

Want to make this even more fun? Give one of the targets the Alert feat, which means they can't be surprised.

In my campaign, the party was walking down a dark hallway holding a torch. Ahead of them in the hallway, beyond the torchlight's radius, stood three enemies, armed with shortbows, standing motionless in ambush. Now, a torch sheds bright light in a 20 foot radius and dim light in a 20 foot radius past that. A shortbow has a close range of 80 feet.

The party was on high alert, and the barbarian has the alert feat, so by the rules nobody was surprised. I had them roll initiative, but they couldn't really take any actions since they didn't actually know there were enemies ahead. For all these reasons, hey were pissed when arrows flew out of the darkness and struck them.

After a heated discussion, we decided to treat the enemies hiding in the darkness ahead as invisible - meaning they had advantage on their attacks and the PCs had disadvantage on attacks against them. But the encounter did a great job of illustrating how tricky the surprise rules in this edition can be to navigate.

If he was not surpised it could just mean that he heard them making noise before they got their shots off. They may still be unseen, but he is not surpised in the first round and still gets his move and action.

 

[fjw70]

Want to make this even more fun? Give one of the targets the Alert feat, which means they can't be surprised.

In my campaign, the party was walking down a dark hallway holding a torch. Ahead of them in the hallway, beyond the torchlight's radius, stood three enemies, armed with shortbows, standing motionless in ambush. Now, a torch sheds bright light in a 20 foot radius and dim light in a 20 foot radius past that. A shortbow has a close range of 80 feet.

The party was on high alert, and the barbarian has the alert feat, so by the rules nobody was surprised. I had them roll initiative, but they couldn't really take any actions since they didn't actually know there were enemies ahead. For all these reasons, hey were pissed when arrows flew out of the darkness and struck them.

After a heated discussion, we decided to treat the enemies hiding in the darkness ahead as invisible - meaning they had advantage on their attacks and the PCs had disadvantage on attacks against them. But the encounter did a great job of illustrating how tricky the surprise rules in this edition can be to navigate.

If no one was surprised then I assume the creatures in the darkness failed their stealth checks. So the PCs would have known where the monsters were even if they couldn't see them.

 

[Ath'kethin]

If no one was surprised then I assume the creatures in the darkness failed their stealth checks. So the PCs would have known where the monsters were even if they couldn't see them.

You're free to assume whatever you like; that isn't what happened and it's not what I described. A creature with the Alert feat cannot be surprised. That doesn't mean they know where an enemy is or even that one is present.

 

[fjw70]

You're free to assume whatever you like; that isn't what happened and it's not what I described. A creature with the Alert feat cannot be surprised. That doesn't mean they know where an enemy is or even that one is present.

Only one of the PCs had the alert feat. The other two could be surprised. The barbarian still would have known there was a danger on his turn and took the dodge action or readied an action, or whatever on his turn.

 

[Kalshane]

According to the PH: "When a creature can’t see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it."

"In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you."

What about out of combat?

Situation 1: A rogue makes a successful stealth check and sneaks up behind a bored guard. I assume they are considered "unseen" and attack with advantage (and the guard is surprised).

That is how I would rule it, though I think the default "everyone has magical 360 degree vision at all times" assumption in the rules is both unrealistic and needlessly strict against stealth.

Situation 2: A character in a busy crowd walks up behind a bored guard and attacks (no stealth check). Is he considered unseen?

This is a little trickier, since the character is definitely not "unseen" but is rather possibly not recognized as a threat. I'd probably say Deception vs. Insight for the character to remain "nonthreatening" to the guard before he makes the attack (if he fails, the guard realizes the character is a little twitchy or otherwise anxious) and then allow a Sleight of Hand vs. Passive Perception of both the guard and "the crowd" (probably set the latter at 15. Average person plus Advantage to reflect the number of eyes on the character.) If the character passes both checks he can take the guard by surprise. (Otherwise he either tips his hand and alerts the guard or else someone in the crowd sees him drawing the weapon and cries out likewise alerting the guard.)

Situation 3: A Warlock with Mask of Many Faces makes himself look like a friendly NPC, walks up to a bored guard, passes behind him, and then attacks the guard from behind. Is the Warlock unseen?

Deception vs. Insight again. If success, the guard is surprised. If the character wants to be treated as Hidden, though, he's going to have to make a Stealth check vs. the guard's passive perception, as even if the guard doesn't register the character as a threat, he's still aware of his existence. I might just be overly paranoid, but I personally get twitchy when someone walks past me and then starts doing something directly behind me.

 

[MrHotter]

You're free to assume whatever you like; that isn't what happened and it's not what I described. A creature with the Alert feat cannot be surprised. That doesn't mean they know where an enemy is or even that one is present.

There is a chance he could not have been surprised even without the alert feat.

When someone is waiting to ambush someone else, they need to roll stealth against the passive perception of the target. With the circumstances you've described you could give the ambushers advantage on the roll for being hidden.

If the stealth roll failed then the character heard something or perhaps saw a glint of metal reflecting from his torchlight. They would get to act in initiative order on the first round just like what you ended up doing.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

Obviously it's a DM call, but I'm curious how people here would rule.

Kinda answered your own question there, huh?

Me?

Sit 1: Advantage.
Sit 2: Advantage. I don't care about the whole seen/unseen rules here...in this case, Advantage makes sense.
Sit 3: Advantage. Again, seen/unseen = don't give a f-k. Makes sense for him to have Advantage.

Too many DM's and players nowadays get bogged down in the "rules" and seem to think that if there is a rule, then that's just the way it is and the DM doesn't/should'nt have a say. Bullpucky to that! As I've said many a time..."D&D RAW is like the Pirates Code...more...'guidelines' than actual rules". How should RAW be used? As they were always intended; for a DM to use as a basis to make a ruling while running his/her game.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[pming]

Hiya!

How does one attack outside combat?

By accident?

DM: While invisible you throw the rock down the hallway to distract the guards. Unfortunately a scullery maid happens to walk around the corner just as your rock hits her. You pop back into the visible spectrum and the guards seem... unhappy... that you are standing there.



^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Yunru]

No.



No.



No.

In all three cases the target can see the attacker, and so the attacker is not considered "unseen".

OTOH, they all sound like situations where the target would be surprised, meaning that they essentially skip their first round of combat.

I was going to say exactly this.