D&D 5E When do you get advantage from attacking while unseen?

[Springheel]

"In all three cases the target can see the attacker, and so the attacker is not considered "unseen"."

How can the guard see someone who is behind them?

 

[FrogReaver]

Obviously he has eyes in the back of his head!

"In all three cases the target can see the attacker, and so the attacker is not considered "unseen"."

How can the guard see someone who is behind them?

 

[Li Shenron]

"In all three cases the target can see the attacker, and so the attacker is not considered "unseen"."

How can the guard see someone who is behind them?

By default there are no facing rules.

That doesn't mean you are disallowed to consider facing in some situations like that

But as a starting point, I would say that someone facing a certain direction at a certain time doesn't matter. It is reasonable to think it should be easier to attack the guard from behind, but it is also reasonable to think an average guard is not a moron standing in the open like a statue staring at a point on the horizon. The attacker still gets surprise which is a very good benefit.

I would give the additional benefits of being unseen only if the attacker really cannot be seen during the whole action up to and including the attack itself, for example if invisible, if they are in darkness, or if the guard is blinded.

 

[fjw70]

In 1 and 2 I would allow the attacker to be unseen with a successful stealth check (probably with advantage on 2) and would allow the same thing with a deception check on 3.

 

[DEFCON 1]

At the end of the day, all of the Hiding and Stealth rules that game has in place and that everyone on the boards here argues about devolves to a simple equation:

Skill check vs passive skill produces Advantage on the attack.

That's it. Regardless of all the description of who is doing what where and what is blocking or not blocking or sound or visions so on and so forth... the actual mechanics is that one creature makes a skill check, and if it is higher than the passive skill check number of another creature, the first creature can attack him with Advantage.

That's all we're talking about here. Getting to make an attack with Advantage. Something that pretty much every single character and monster has multiple ways to do so anyways.

So a DM could basically use ANY skill for the check and ANY skill for the passive number and then with a die roll determine whether the attack is with Advantage or not. And that comes down entirely to the in-story situation and which two skills make the most "sense" narratively. Whether it's...

Stealth vs passive Perception when a creature fires on the other while hidden in the bushes...
Deception vs passive Insight when a person is disguised as a friend and stabs him in the back...
Athletics vs passive Acrobatics when a creature jumps down on someone with a "Death From Above" attack...

So on and so on and so on.

When I really think about it... I grant Advantage so many times for so many things without a second thought that I find it almost incomprehensible that for some stupid reason Stealth is the one thing that generates thread after thread after thread of discussion and argument. All over figuring out whether to give a guy Advantage on an attack! That's it! Something that happens all the time anyway, we keep arguing and arguing and arguing all of the ridiculous reasons why we shouldn't give it in this one case-- when it involves Stealth. It's really kind of silly the amount of time we've spent worrying about it when you think about how completely generic the result is.

If you are a DM just ask yourself... "Is what is happening in the fiction of the story advantageous for the creature attacking?" If the answer is 'Yes'... in whatever form the fiction is narratively illustrating it... then give the guy Advantage on the attack. And stop worrying about parsing the incomprehensible rules on Hiding. It's not worth your time. Not when it just grants an extra die roll that you'd probably give the guy for a creative solution or action anyway.

--And on a similar note, it's the same reason why I find all the arguments about whether the Assassin Rogue should get to use their Assassination ability and worrying about rolling initiative and who acts first and can you attack out of combat to gain surprise before initiative, etc. etc. etc... all to figure out whether the Rogue can make a Critical Hit. An event that occurs every 20th swing of the Rogue's blade anyway. Giving the Rogue an extra critical hit really isn't worth the amount of time we've all spent arguing about whether it should actually happen.

 

[Uller]

According to the PH: "When a creature can’t see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it."

"In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you."

What about out of combat?

Situation 1: A rogue makes a successful stealth check and sneaks up behind a bored guard. I assume they are considered "unseen" and attack with advantage (and the guard is surprised).

Situation 2: A character in a busy crowd walks up behind a bored guard and attacks (no stealth check). Is he considered unseen?

Situation 3: A Warlock with Mask of Many Faces makes himself look like a friendly NPC, walks up to a bored guard, passes behind him, and then attacks the guard from behind. Is the Warlock unseen?


Obviously it's a DM call, but I'm curious how people here would rule.

Here is how I would rule on each (I try to rule the same way regardless of which character is the PC):

Situation 1: Rogue makes a stealth vs perception check. Even if it is a "bored guard" presumably he is still vaguely aware of his surroundings and looking about from time to time. If he is actively engaged in some other activity then I'd go with passive perception. Assuming the rogue ties or beats the guard's roll, the guard doesn't notice him. Combat starts with an initiative roll but the guard is surprised. I have my own house rules on how surprise works that I'll not go into here....following RAW surprise rules, if the guard wins init, he becomes just aware enough to be able to take reactions on the rogue's turn. Otherwise, the rogue can attack (with advantage on the first attack roll), move away without provoking an OA or other reactions and then use his bonus action to rehide, dodge, disengage or dash (assuming 2nd level).

Situation 2: I ALWAYS require a check to be unseen/unnoticed. The target/victim should always have a chance to notice, because it is a game. I wouldn't do that to a PC so I wouldn't allow a PC to do it to an NPC. Even if the rogue were invisible, I'd allow stealth vs perception check for the guard to at least avoid being surprised. Maybe he notices a sound. Maybe just has some intuition. There should always be a chance, even a slim one unless the rogue simply has an unbeatable stealth bonus (which happens and that's okay). So right before the rogue attacks I'd require a check of some sort. It doesn't have to be stealth depending on circumstances. Maybe deception vs insight to hide intentions. If the rogue succeeds, the guard is surprised and the rogue is unseen. Roll init.

Situation 3: As I said, I'd still allow a chance for the guard. I'd allow the warlock to make a deception check with advantage vs insight (possibly with disadvantage) to be able to initiate combat with the guard surprised and allow the first attack to have advantage.

 

[Uller]

At the end of the day, all of the Hiding and Stealth rules that game has in place and that everyone on the boards here argues about devolves to a simple equation:

Skill check vs passive skill produces Advantage on the attack.

Not necessarily passive skill...but yeah.

The basic engine of D&D is:

1) DM narrates the situation
2) Player declares an action
3) DM determines if that action has a non-trivial chance of success/failure
4) If the action is trivially easy/impossible, the DM just narrates the result
5) If the action has a chance of success/failure the DM calls for a check vs a DC or a contest. A roll is made and the DM narrates the result.

The stealth rules are just there to help the DM determine if stealth is possible or not and if there is a chance of success/failure how to apply advantage/disadvantage to the roll.

 

[Plaguescarred]

Situation 1: A rogue makes a successful stealth check and sneaks up behind a bored guard. I assume they are considered "unseen" and attack with advantage (and the guard is surprised).

I'd use surprise rules and advantage would be retained only if the attacker is still unseen, or if i judge that the target is distracted when the attacker comes out of hiding.

Situation 2: A character in a busy crowd walks up behind a bored guard and attacks (no stealth check). Is he considered unseen?

No, since there's no facing rules by default, i wouldn't have any advantage.

Situation 3: A Warlock with Mask of Many Faces makes himself look like a friendly NPC, walks up to a bored guard, passes behind him, and then attacks the guard from behind. Is the Warlock unseen?

No, since there's no facing rules by default, i wouldn't have any advantage unless i somehow judge that the deception is good enough to surprise the target with a deception vs insight contest.

 

[Flamestrike]

Want to make this even more fun? Give one of the targets the Alert feat, which means they can't be surprised.

In my campaign, the party was walking down a dark hallway holding a torch. Ahead of them in the hallway, beyond the torchlight's radius, stood three enemies, armed with shortbows, standing motionless in ambush. Now, a torch sheds bright light in a 20 foot radius and dim light in a 20 foot radius past that. A shortbow has a close range of 80 feet.

The party was on high alert, and the barbarian has the alert feat, so by the rules nobody was surprised. I had them roll initiative, but they couldn't really take any actions since they didn't actually know there were enemies ahead. For all these reasons, hey were pissed when arrows flew out of the darkness and struck them.

After a heated discussion, we decided to treat the enemies hiding in the darkness ahead as invisible - meaning they had advantage on their attacks and the PCs had disadvantage on attacks against them. But the encounter did a great job of illustrating how tricky the surprise rules in this edition can be to navigate.

Ermmm, no. By the rules the barbarian and your monsters were not surprised. The rest of the party most certainly were surprised.

What surprised them was the hail of arrows coming from the darkness which initiated combat. The reason your players were upset is because you failed to narrate the combat correctly.

"As you walk down the corridor, a hail of arrows land around you coming from the darkness ahead. Everyone is surprised - except for you barbarian. Everyone roll initiative."