When Do You (GM) Kill PCs?

[jdrakeh]

I think you don't understand the odds involved here.

I think the problem is, rather, that I am taking games other than D&D into consideration, whereas you are not (I actually mentioned, by name, the RPG in which Death by Squirrel is possible further up the thread).

One of the most hillarious stories from my games is the time a PC was killed by a young street urchin who got a lucky double critical and killed him. It was some random encounter that didn't mean anything, something I threw in for a city encounter, some 14 year old pick pocket who grabbed 2 daggers when cornered and BAM!

Yeah. In most games that I've played in or run, players don't find stuff like that 'hillarious'. Like I said, we aren't going to see eye to eye on anything.

What are you talking about? You say non-sensical, but I have no idea what you mean.

I mean things like Conan dying every few game sessions - doesn't make sense. Or Odysseus dying (at all, really) doesn't make sense. Having a heroic PC decapitated by a squirrel doesn't make sens (but can happen in Rolemaster). And if you let the dice rule your game, all of these things can happen, eventually will happen, and not make sense when they do happen. But I digress, we're not going to see eye to eye on any of this.

You seem to be taking impossible events and turning them into reasons to fudge.

You seem to be putting your words in my mouth and making ad-hominem attacks. I tried to break off the conversation politely by saying that we'd never see eye to eye, but you felt the need to continue it on a rather insulting level. I'll make it easy for you. Welcome to my ignore list.

 

[Henry]

I try to avoid insta-kill situations, but I'll also include challenges above what they can handle, and usually provide plenty of clear warning that this is the case. Sometimes, players will carry on heedlessly, hoping for fame or quick gold, and if they do, then they can pay the price or get lucky and survive, all the same.

 

[Henry]

Yeah. In most games that I've played in or run, players don't find stuff like that 'hillarious'. Like I said, we aren't going to see eye to eye on anything.

Agreed, all styles will differ; our group is more like Thirdwizards, because we've had some legendary stories of equal stupidity, like when our group of adult PC's (including an 18 INT wizard) was outsmarted by a 13-year-old kid who tricked us and sold us to pirates.

 

[jdrakeh]

Ummm, I can. In a Runequest game there was a centaur, a human swordsman, a troll, and an elf wandering through a swamp. We were surprised by a giant alligator. The first round the alligator broke the Troll's legs with a tail sweep, KOing the troll. The centaur tried a trample but got stuck in the mud and the alligator did a "death roll" that shoved him under water (swim skill:0). The elf and swordsmen launched attacks at the alligator but most were deflected by its thick armor.

The swordsmen did the RQ equivalent of burning all his Action Points, used all his once/day specials in an attack guaranteed to kill anything short of a dragon. He then fumbled the attack and proceeded to roll four 00% in a row to get onto the "super-secret 1:1,000,000 you won't see these in a game but wouldn't they be funny" table where he inflicted double damage to himself.

The elf quietly looted the bodies he could reach and fled for his life while the alligator enjoyed its meal(s).

Well, that's not quite the same thing because:

A. There was a survivior.
B. The campaign didn't end.

I can see where what you're talking about might be fun. I cannot see where rolling critical fumbles on the Rolemaster Small Animal Crit tables resulting in the death of an entire party and the end of a campaign would be fun

[Note: For the record, I've actually seen that happen in a campaign that had been running approximately five years. None of the players ever returned to the GM's table as a result. Because ending a long-running campaign like that is horribly unfun.]

 

[ThirdWizard]

I think the problem is, rather, that I am taking games other than D&D into consideration, whereas you are not (I actually mentioned, by name, the RPG in which Death by Squirrel is possible further up the thread).

The thread is in reference to D&D.

I can't comment on Rolemaster. Perhaps it is perfectly okay to fudge in Rolemaster. I think its perfectly acceptable to fudge in Buffy, for example. Two different games, two different structures. You can't relate the two to each other. What is the best thing to do in one is not necessarily the right thing to do in another.

 

[jdrakeh]

Agreed, all styles will differ; our group is more like Thirdwizards, because we've had some legendary stories of equal stupidity, like when our group of adult PC's (including an 18 INT wizard) was outsmarted by a 13-year-old kid who tricked us and sold us to pirates.

Sure - one man's ceiling is another man's floor and all that. That's why I'd tried to back out of the conversation with ThirdWizard on that note - but apparently he wasn't having it

 

[ThirdWizard]

Personally, I thought we were just making some headway. I have no animosity toward you, and I hope you have none toward me. It seemed like we had made too much progress to simply agree to disagree.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Well, that's not quite the same thing because:
A. There was a survivior.
B. The campaign didn't end.

Okay it wasn't a complete TPK but the odds of the elf making out of the swamp alive solo was dang slim. And the campaign did end. We figured the dice gods were mad at us for our previous successes so we switched to an AD&D/Primal Order game.

But again, this was death due to a plausible consequence of our adventuring; there was no GM fiat involved. the lack of fiat seems to irk some people but IMO if I'm in a game where we let the dice lay where they land, I expect the good with the bad. In our groups the only reason the DM rolls in secret is so the players don't meta-game the attack bonuses of the monster. (roughly 70% of the gaming group started college on an engineering track so they're all pretty math oriented)

In a game where the DM makes rolls for players that's a different style of play entirely. I've been in both and personally prefer the "true hand of fate" gaming vs. the "hand of GM." When bad things happen to you in a "Hand of GM" game, the GM is screwing with you. Bad things in a "Hand of Fate" game means god is screwing with you. One is malicious, one is just funny.

 

[med stud]

On the popular demand of my players I roll all dice in the open. We're also in the camp that a story is what happens in the game, it's not to be created before the game. For example, all background I really need is "bad ass pirate with a bandana and gold rings in his ears. He never goes anywhere without at least two hidden daggers.". After that, if he survives, he might make a deeper story for himself.

 

[Hussar]

On the popular demand of my players I roll all dice in the open. We're also in the camp that a story is what happens in the game, it's not to be created before the game. For example, all background I really need is "bad ass pirate with a bandana and gold rings in his ears. He never goes anywhere without at least two hidden daggers.". After that, if he survives, he might make a deeper story for himself.

And that, to me, is the way the game is meant to be played.

People have mentioned literary figures like Conan and Odysseus not dying. Well, duh. Of course they didn't die. Killing off Conan would be ending someone's gravy train. If you pick up a Conan story, you know that he isn't going to die. Before you even crack the spine, you know that.

Myself, I would NEVER want to play in a game where I know that.

When bad things happen to you in a "Hand of GM" game, the GM is screwing with you. Bad things in a "Hand of Fate" game means god is screwing with you. One is malicious, one is just funny.

Quoted for truth.