When "fun" just isn't enough.

[Doug McCrae]

It occurs to me that per day resources are a somewhat unsuccessful way of handling resource management, leading to the 15 min day problem. D&D would have worked better as a game if per day resources had instead been 'per adventure', 'per dungeon' or per X number of encounters. So magic users and clerics would only get their spells back when a new adventure (as defined by the DM) begins or after, say, 12 encounters.

4e's per encounter resources, which are 100% game-y, look a bit odd next to the kludge of per day resources. Something to seriously consider for 5e, or as a house rule.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

It occurs to me that per day resources are a somewhat unsuccessful way of handling resource management, leading to the 15 min day problem. D&D would have worked better as a game if per day resources had instead been 'per adventure', 'per dungeon' or per X number of encounters. So magic users and clerics would only get their spells back when a new adventure (as defined by the DM) begins or after, say, 12 encounters.

4e's per encounter resources, which are 100% game-y, look a bit odd next to the kludge of per day resources. Something to seriously consider for 5e, or as a house rule.

A "realistic"-feeling approach might be to give an explicit preperation time for each individual spell or ability. Instead of saying preperation takes 1 hour after dawn, say a n-th level spell requires m minutes to recharge for a o-th level caster. But that will be pretty awkward, and how much does it benefit the game?

In some ways, an adventure is made from the buillding blocks of "encounters" or "challenges" If you have a long adventure, you will have more encounters/challenges then in a short one. But this doesn't tell you wether it will take a long time in-game (e.g. are the challenges all a time against the clock and must be done within a single day, or does it involve weeks of overland-travel). Abilities that use a time-frame outside this building block basically force you to accomondate these times.

Maybe one approach might be: "Okay, this is a 14 challenges adventure. This means you get 14 tokens/action points/drama points/possibilites at the start of the adventure. You can use them to buy your spells and hit point regenerations in the course of the adventure. That's it." But maybe this is just the same as saying that you get "per encounter" powers, except that per encounter powers don't allow long-term resource management.

This reminds me (as so many discussions involving this points) of Torg. You got the "possibilities" at the end of the adventure there, but the amount was usually related to how long (play-time/ # sessions -> number of scenes) the adventure lasted. The idea might have been to give one possibliity per "plotted" scene in the adventure. (The system broke a little bit down when involving races or classes that needed possibilities to retain their abilities. Short adventures usually didn't reduce these costs, but they gave you less possibilties)

 

[Lwaxy]

I had and played in groups who loved dungeoneering. It can be great fun if done right, that is, set inside a larger scale with a purpose.

For example, one of my groups was a band of poor fighters/magicians who needed to make a living by clearing out lair and dungeons which had been left infested with rather intelligent monsters and lotsa Grimtooth-style traps. It was not all we did, and those dungeons were usually part of a larger story (including some court intrigues etc) but it was just the way our group made money. It was among the very best campaigns I ever played, and I'd gladly do it again.

Generally, I love epic style RPGs though, where dungeons and even dragons are only a small part of the show ) But I'd not want to do without them, ever.

 

[haakon1]

The major problem with wandering monsters in a heroic adventure game is that they serve no purpose other than as an XP speedbump. They aren't important to the arc of the storyline, they don't matter in terms of pacing, and they distract you from what is REALLY important in a heroic adventure game (finding the bad guy and beating the cheese out of them, or exploring your character's history, or discovering the site of an ancient battle that can be re-told by a wizened old sage, etc.). They don't get at what people are looking for when they're looking for heroic adventure. They aren't very heroic, they aren't very adventurous, they're just there as background noise, which heroic adventure isn't particularly concerned with. It would be like forcing characters to RP buying torches or encountering a squirrel.

Wandering monsters matter/are useful for several reasons:
1) Preventing 15 minute adventuring days. It's scary to sleep in the dungeon if you never know what could wake you. Scary environments and time pressure work in heroic adventure.
2) Patrols for the bad guys. Are LOTR or Star Wars not heroic because there were wandering orc patrols in Mordor/wandering storm troopers in the Death Star?
3) Verisimilitude. Intelligent creatures that can open doors are going to move around, to get water and food, and so on. Movement allows for chance encounters, and allows for logical ambushing (PC's guarding the water hole to see what comes to drink).

 

[Lanefan]

Wandering monsters matter/are useful for several reasons:
1) Preventing 15 minute adventuring days. It's scary to sleep in the dungeon if you never know what could wake you. Scary environments and time pressure work in heroic adventure.
2) Patrols for the bad guys. Are LOTR or Star Wars not heroic because there were wandering orc patrols in Mordor/wandering storm troopers in the Death Star?
3) Verisimilitude. Intelligent creatures that can open doors are going to move around, to get water and food, and so on. Movement allows for chance encounters, and allows for logical ambushing (PC's guarding the water hole to see what comes to drink).

Agreed on all counts; and the "wandering monster" mechanic is handy so the DM doesn't have to keep track of the precise whereabouts of every occupant of the place.

Wandering monsters can also make good red herrings. Imagine a low-level party entering a dungeon and the only wandering monsters they meet for a while are giant rats. They're going to start thinking the adventure's about smoking out a big nest o' rats...except, to the real occupants of the place, the rats are invaders too!

Lanefan

 

[Raven Crowking]

Agreed on all counts; and the "wandering monster" mechanic is handy so the DM doesn't have to keep track of the precise whereabouts of every occupant of the place.

Absolutely.

RC

 

[Hussar]

Wandering monsters matter/are useful for several reasons:
1) Preventing 15 minute adventuring days. It's scary to sleep in the dungeon if you never know what could wake you. Scary environments and time pressure work in heroic adventure.

Except that it doesn't. Find a secret door, rest. And time pressure most certainly doesn't work since you run out of spells so quickly. Even quicker with dealing with random patrols. If you have time pressure adventures, you have to keep each encounter to a bare minimum or the party simply runs out of gas.

2) Patrols for the bad guys. Are LOTR or Star Wars not heroic because there were wandering orc patrols in Mordor/wandering storm troopers in the Death Star?

Why do these have to be random? Heck, why should they be random. Patrols aren't random, they're scheduled. By and large they pretty predictable. Why piddle about with a 1 in 6 chance every 15 minutes when you can simply write them straight into the adventure and plan for them?

3) Verisimilitude. Intelligent creatures that can open doors are going to move around, to get water and food, and so on. Movement allows for chance encounters, and allows for logical ambushing (PC's guarding the water hole to see what comes to drink).

No, it doesn'T allow for logical ambushing since they're random. How do the PC's plan an ambush for something that they have no idea is coming. And, how does the random encounter plan an ambush when they are random? Guarding the water hole? Gee, that sounds like loads of fun. Truly heroic gaming there. Besides, which is it? Time pressure or pissing about watching a pond?

 

[Phlebas]

It occurs to me that per day resources are a somewhat unsuccessful way of handling resource management, leading to the 15 min day problem. D&D would have worked better as a game if per day resources had instead been 'per adventure', 'per dungeon' or per X number of encounters. So magic users and clerics would only get their spells back when a new adventure (as defined by the DM) begins or after, say, 12 encounters.

4e's per encounter resources, which are 100% game-y, look a bit odd next to the kludge of per day resources. Something to seriously consider for 5e, or as a house rule.

Really can't decide if this is good or bad - i prefer placing time pressure on players (and having pressure placed on me as a player) and forcing them to fight / act when low on resources (with the ideal of staggering out of the final encounter with one floating disc spell left for the unconscious fighter...)
However I know others hate this aspect of the game.

Per enounter mechanics might give you the best of both worlds, or it might make it more difficult to get that ticking clock feeling. Maybe 'action points' might be the way around - DM's can issue lots or little depending on how they want the game to feel.

 

[haakon1]

Why do these have to be random? Heck, why should they be random. Patrols aren't random, they're scheduled. By and large they pretty predictable. Why piddle about with a 1 in 6 chance every 15 minutes when you can simply write them straight into the adventure and plan for them?

Good question. My wandering monsters may vary a bit from yours. Mine are taken from a pool that can be used up and comes from a specific place in the dungeon. It's not a floating unlimited monster generator.

As for where they appear, as Spock once said, "Random chance appears to have worked in our favor." That is, it's a decent simulation for the wandering stuff happening to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

No, it doesn'T allow for logical ambushing since they're random. How do the PC's plan an ambush for something that they have no idea is coming. And, how does the random encounter plan an ambush when they are random? Guarding the water hole? Gee, that sounds like loads of fun. Truly heroic gaming there. Besides, which is it? Time pressure or pissing about watching a pond?

Wandering doesn't have to equal random. If the PC's camp out at the only watering hole, eventually I'll have everything that drinks stop by. Common sense is the most important rule. I make stuff up about how the world should work routinely, even though I'm running 3.5. For example, I just came up with the rule that climbing a ladder is at half movement, instead of full (flat surface) or 1/4 (technical climbing under the Climb skill). Perhaps this exists in a rulebook somewhere, or perhaps there's a different rule, but it made sense to me, I told the players about it, and it's applying to both friend and foe, so done. That's kinda how I do it.

As for an ambush at the watering hole being unheroic . . . I game mastered a lot of RECON, which is the game of Long Range Recon Patrols in the Vietnam War. 4-6 guys behind enemy lines hiding and calling in air strikes or running ambushes was pretty fun and heroic for us. I never understood the "tactics aren't heroic" / "paladins can't use tactics" arguments.

And conflict between being under time pressure and wanting to use safer/more effective tactics? Cool, it's dramatic tension and the players have to make some decisions and do some role playing about how their characters handle it.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Mr. Gygax from the 1e PHB (sorry if I made any errors in transcribing):

Wandering monsters can be totally random or pre-planned. A party wandering in the woods outdoors or in a deserted maze might run into nearly any sort of monster. If the woods were the home of a tribe of centaurs, or the dungeon level constructed by a band of orcs, certain prescribed encounters would randomly occur, however. At certain intervals, your DM will generate a random number to find if any meeting with a wandering monster occurs.

Avoiding of fleeing such encounters is often wise, for combat wears down party strength, and wandering monsters seldom have any worthwhile treasure. When confrontation is unavoidable, be wary of tricks, finish off hostile creatures quickly, and get on with the business of exploration.

As noise is a factor your DM will consider in the attraction of additional monsters, avoid arguing or discussing what course of action your party is to take in an open place or for long periods. A fight will take time and cause plenty of noise, so move on quickly after combat with wandering monsters.