When is a power used? (Crescendo Sword)

[1of3]

Actually, I came up with this question because 4e seems very much like M:tG to me. Usually thinking about it like M:tG solves most problems. It's just that in this particular case, I found no definite answer in this manner.

And in fact, I still don't.

Nevertheless, I'm not even sure that the tactic would be optimal in all situations. It might be more useful to use another daily a second time than Crescendo Sword several times.

Are you thinking about an infinite loop? If you do, there's your answer.

Surely not infinite. There is only a limited number of standard actions in an encounter, and a limited number of encounters per day.

 

[Regicide]

When players use the cards, at least in my group... it is eerie how they either turn them to the side, flip them over, or "discard" them... almost as if it is natural to do so...

That is your support for the statement "this game works a lot like "Magic: The Gathering" "? The fact that some of your players handle their optional playing aids in a way that cards are naturally manipulated doesn't make the game like MtG?

I don't see any mechanics that were inherited from MtG, and that includes powers. You can't make the statement that these are mechanically parallel games so the mechanics of one should follow that of the other when there are rules questions. They are fundamentally different games.

 

[keterys]

Anyway, for lack of anything definite in PHB, a power is used when it's used so it could recover itself.

The Reliable keyword and all powers that are not expended if they miss or hit, or whatever, would seem to strongly suggest they are not spent until they are actually spent.

Can you cite any examples at all that would be problematic if a power was not expended until its action was completed?

 

[-Avalon-]

That is your support for the statement "this game works a lot like "Magic: The Gathering" "? The fact that some of your players handle their optional playing aids in a way that cards are naturally manipulated doesn't make the game like MtG?

I don't see any mechanics that were inherited from MtG, and that includes powers. You can't make the statement that these are mechanically parallel games so the mechanics of one should follow that of the other when there are rules questions. They are fundamentally different games.

So, your reply is to sort through and find the one comment, that when taken out of context, is hinky enough to find fault with? Try quoting the entire message and pick apart each part... I was respectful enough to view your entire post and have my disagreements with each part...

No comment on the fact that you said that there are no cards at all, and yet the company who makes the game is selling power cards?

No comment on how even the OP says he views the game in a very M:TG light? lol... Either you are trying to pick a fight, or you have honestly not researched previous posts to base your insights on.

As for similar mechanics... just one to point out for now, there are numerous, but this one is almost direct, and when the sage is asked seems to always be the way it is handled:

Immediate Reactions tend to be handled just like instants (tend, not always)

Immediate Interrupts seem to always be handled just like Interrupts...

Other than that.. hmm, how about the upkeep phase of taking your ongoing damages and effects? Saves happen at end of turn, but your actual prices paid are scheduled to happen at the beginning... and due mainly to NO draw phase (go figure, you have all your cards to start with) you can perform "upkeepish" actions like Minor: Sustain... you can do at any point... but from hearing stories of various different campaigns and groups, those even tend to happen right at the beginning...

So, if WOTC really planned on the likenesses to not be seen, they failed (well, except in your case), because people seem to notice those likenesses and even fall into the part of playing M:TG for the most part.

I think they DID mean for us to see it though, so as to assist us in figuring things out faster, and on our own.

 

[DracoSuave]

Effect: If you hit at least one of your enemies, you regain one daily power you have already used. If you miss all enemies, you regain one encounter power you have already used.

If you are in the process of using something you have not already used it. So no.

 

[Fedifensor]

Devil's Advocate: PHB implies that the power is used when you take the action to use it.

You can use a power whenever you are able to take the action the power requires.

The next line of a power description begins with what type of action you have to take when you use the power.

So, you use the action, which uses the power. You then determine the power's effects.

Reliable is a specific keyword that overrides the normal restrictions on using a power.

Furthermore, I would offer the opinion that Crescendo Sword is designed to have the option to recover itself. It's not a high-damage power (only 2W, though it hits a close burst 1), and recovering the power is in line with the flavor text and other class features.

 

[keterys]

The power is indeed used when you take and complete the action to use it, absolutely. It's the 'in the middle' where people argue. Obviously you use a standard action to use a standard action power

To explain more clearly how Reliable is evidence that a power is not immediately expended, so that you can regain it: 'If you miss when using a reliable power,
you don’t expend the use of that power.'

That implies that the power is not expended until you resolve it - otherwise Reliable would say that you regain the use of that power.

 

[Goumindong]

Furthermore, I would offer the opinion that Crescendo Sword is designed to have the option to recover itself. It's not a high-damage power (only 2W, though it hits a close burst 1), and recovering the power is in line with the flavor text and other class features.

I would argue that that is junk. A 2[W] CB1 power is very strong, especially for people on the fighter path. On top of that you get one of your other dailies or encounters back which is just as strong as many level 12 daily utilities.

Ask yourself this. Are there fighter at-wills that attack multiple targets? If no, why would you allow one for swordmasters.

 

[James McMurray]

It doesn't take a rules lawyer to figure this out, just a dictionary.

Unused: hasn't been touched

Using: currently active

Used: done with

Seems pretty straightforward that Crescendo Sword cannot regain itself.

 

[Regicide]

It doesn't take a rules lawyer to figure this out, just a dictionary.

Unused: hasn't been touched

Using: currently active

Used: done with

Seems pretty straightforward that Crescendo Sword cannot regain itself.

Thus, back to my first comment, by this assumption, while you are using it, it hasn't been used, and thus, can be used again.

DnD has used and unused powers, you're ADDING the "using" state to the rules and that state isn't covered. What you can do to powers you're "using" is undefined.

The closest idea to "using" a power in 4E is called "sustaining" and I don't think theres an argument that a sustained power can be recovered with this power? (regardless of what the player happens to be doing with the card that describes the sustained power)