When is a power used? (Crescendo Sword)

[Regicide]

And a piece of gum that has had the wrapper on it opened... is that used? Because that's the same argument you're making.

An opened piece of gum isn't being used and hasn't been used. Readied maybe.

Is there any rules text, whatsoever, any at all, even something as anecdotal as the Reliable text, to support the position that a power is expended before the action that you're spending to use it has resolved?

The duration of a power, unless otherwise specified, is instantaneous. Standard actions such as swinging a sword aren't instantaneous, so yes, the power is expended before the action is resolved.

 

[keterys]

An opened piece of gum isn't being used and hasn't been used. Readied maybe.

You declared you were eating a piece of gum, you unwrapped it and moved it up to your mouth - how is that any different than Crescendo Sword before its Effect triggers?

The duration of a power, unless otherwise specified, is instantaneous. Standard actions such as swinging a sword aren't instantaneous, so yes, the power is expended before the action is resolved.

How are standard actions not instantaneous? Are you trying to create time paradoxes, where you declare a power, and have already used it (it's instantaneous), then go to execute it, but wait... you can't do that, it's already used! That's completely illogical, but it's as much correct to the rules as your statement.

What part of _anything_ you just said was rules text? Be a little more serious here if you want to prove your point. Actually find a rule. Quote it or note it. Etc.

 

[Regicide]

What part of _anything_ you just said was rules text? Be a little more serious here if you want to prove your point. Actually find a rule. Quote it or note it. Etc.

Definition of actions in PHB, definition of duration in PHB. Enjoy.

 

[keterys]

Neither of which has any bearing on the expenditure of powers, as you could see if you actually read the text in question. Or perhaps already even know.

It is, for reference, perfectly acceptable to just say you like the game better if it works with it able to recharge itself and move on... it just doesn't work to say that's RAW without a written rule to back it up.

At any rate, a slightly more rigorous look at what I see as the rules surrounding this:

'Not expended' language can be found in
Reliable (p55)
Wizard of the Spiral Tower (p171)
Deadly Trickster (p174)
Staff of Power (p242)

All triggering while still resolving a power.

Regain the use of a power
Divine Vigor
Steel Blitz (p88)
Crescendo Sword (p88)
Astral Rejuvenation (p100)
Cold Steel Hurricane (p115)
Bolt of Genius (p154)
Sword Marshal's Action (p155)
Soul Burn (p170)
Spiral Tower Action (p171)
Shape Magic (p174)
Divine Miracle (p175)
Arcane Mastery (p206)
Epic Resurgence (p206)
Orb of Invasive Fortunes (p238)
Ring of Wizardry (p252)
Extended Rest (p263)

Can never occur during the action that expends a power, due to timing or action requirement.

Recover with a twist:
Epic Trick (p174) allows you to recover all daily powers, except this one. Unfortunately that validates neither viewpoint - they may be clarifying it doesn't work on that one just because it could completely break someone's game if there was a misunderstanding (unlike Crescendo Sword) or because if they didn't state it, it could work. This would have, however, satisfied my curiosity for at least any rules text to support the viewpoint

Expend comes up frequently in the ritual rules, with extremely clear language that you don't expend scrolls or components until the ritual is complete. If only the rules for other powers were more clear.

So, expend is always used for the language of a power while it's still being resolved instead of regain, heavily implying it is not expended / cannot be regained until afterwards, while regain is always used for when it's already resolved, implying you can't just say a power is not expended when it's already been used. Shaky, but the best I can see.

Other than those, the only text I can see on this is that you _can_ use a power if you can take the required action and that you require an appropriate action to take a power (p54 and p292). So we know you can't, for instance, use Crescendo Sword without a standard action available, and it can't be used until you spend that standard action - at which point the question still remains 'Does it count as used when I've declared its use or when I've resolved its use?' Technically there is a 3rd option of 'somewhere in the middle', which is probably most accurate for real life, but not helpful for in game

If you want to approach the common english side of things, you could look at the following conversations:
PC: Okay, I use Crescendo Sword on A
DM: Okay, he interrupts with a Disruptive Strike.
PC: Eh, okay, well my Crescendo Sword hits...
DM: Wait, didn't you already use Crescendo Sword a moment ago?

PC: I use Crescendo Sword on A, it does...
DM: You have to turn over your power card once you've used your power
PC: I will once I'm finished reading it!

to see that while the 'I use' does show up at the beginning, supporting the argument that it might be expended, there's also some serious silliness if you assumed use didn't also include resolving the power in question.

 

[Grabuto138]

I'm not adding anything. I'm just assuming that the English speaking authors who wrote their books in English for English speaking readers to read in English would assume a basic level of understanding of the English language and its verb tenses: past, present, and future. You are of course free to equate those tenses, but I'd be concerned about the things you introduce into the game when past and present are the same thing.

I have been lurking at Enworld for over 6 years. I rarely felt the need to post because despite the complexity of 3e rules I learned a lot more by just reading. Maybe the 4e rules are just too obvious for the interesting and insightful people who used to post to keep posting. Anyway, I think I am done. Good luck.

 

[Goumindong]

It's hardly problematic; close bursts aren't all that great, it doesn't have a comparable miss effect, and it's no more an infinite loop than using an at-will power (and, of course, you can miss).

Close Bursts are actually that great. The benefit is not necessarily in the damage it does, but in what it allows you to do. A Close burst for a fighter means that you have locked down each and every one of those enemies unless they can teleport. The only action they are permitted is to make a melee attack against you, or close attack.

This virtually guarantees that you're going to get to use your combat challenge and/or an OA especially as the number of enemies increase. If you do, then your DPR goes up considerably even over the single target twin strike ability[the relative costs of provoking a CC is much higher when only a single enemy is marked]. If you don't get to use it then your high AC is providing a serious reduction in the enemies DPR and you're defending a lot better.

 

[James McMurray]

I have been lurking at Enworld for over 6 years. I rarely felt the need to post because despite the complexity of 3e rules I learned a lot more by just reading. Maybe the 4e rules are just too obvious for the interesting and insightful people who used to post to keep posting. Anyway, I think I am done. Good luck.

Thanks!

 

[Regicide]

CS response: A power is considered expended as soon as it's used, so Crescendo Sword can be used to regain itself. Similarly, it can also be used on a power that was used but is currently being sustained.

 

[keterys]

Cool - that takes care of some questions around epic resurgence too.

 

[DracoSuave]

The term Crescendo uses isn't 'used'. It's 'already used'. Notice the use of an adverb modifies the verb form 'used' to mean something slightly different.

I notice all the arguments here have forgotten that, and are therefore -woefully- incomplete.

You have not -already- used the power when you are using the power. It's not a matter of an expended state or not. In this case, it's meaning 'previously' as in, have you previously used the power. The using of a power cannot be previous to the using of a power by any logic that makes sense in any sense, baring the use of wormholes to carry yourself back in time to meet with yourself.

Therefore, you cannot have -already used- Crescendo Sword during the use of Crescendo Sword. It doesn't make sense. Use of magic tapping rules (which has discrete timing for such things and as such, you never untap something during the tapping of it) is irrelevant because this is NOT the same ball of wax.

The power itself does not use the term 'expended' so talk of when a power is expended is irrelevent. Using a power is a process that includes its resolution, and takes up an entire action.