When is it okay to lose a caster level?

[Kobold Stew]

It is an oft repeated mantra on this board that losing caster levels is greatly disadvantageous for an ambitous spellcaster. So the question is:

Is it ever okay to lase a caster level?

The PrC Eldritch Knight suggests that a feat + a fighter's BAB is worth -1 caster level.

Planetouched (aasimar/tiefling) suggest that +2 to caster stat, plus some resistances are worth it.

And it would seem to be worth losing a few levels to qualify for other PrCs.

I suspect (know) that there are people who say that these are not worthwhile trades, even in a less-that-ideally-optimized concept of a character.

But what trades do you find worthwhile/reasonable?

One example I am thinking of is a one-level intial dip in barbarian before beginning as a sorcerer. Even though the sorcerer is a level behind in progression anyway, I think for real adventuring it is hard to beat the hitpoint bonus, saves, speed bonus, for someone who wants to be a long-lived sorcerer.

Thoughts? Other examples?

Kobold Stew.

 

[ThoughtfulOwl]

The problem is that spellcasting enjoys a greater than linear growth in power: it gives more spells to cast, a greater variety of spells, spells of higher level and better level-dependent values. Falling behind hurts a lot and the Practiced Spellcasting feat only gives you back the fourth point.
As a rule of thumb (and in my opinion, of course):

- Losing one level can be acceptable in exchange for a better base (like ability bonuses) or for a solid secondary field of competence.
- Losing two levels already hurts. A lot. It should be accepted only if you get significant special abilities in exchange that couldn't be covered with magic.
- Losing three levels is pretty much the farthest you can go and still be a primary caster. You will be hard-pressed to compete with somebody with full levels, so ensure that what you get in exchange is darn good.
- If you lose four or more levels, then you aren't a primary caster anymore; you have another role and your spellcasting is pushed into a supportive role; choose your spells accordingly.

 

[Thanee]

It's ok, as long as you do not play a pure spellcaster, i.e. spellcasting is your one and only primary ability. You could lose one caster level, which is not all too bad, but that is the absolute limit IMHO, unless your character focuses on anything else besides spellcasting.

For example, if you make a fighter-mage, then it's certainly ok to lose 2 or 3 caster levels to get to the Eldritch Knight PrC in order to have better attack values and hit points, as some of your focus shifts away from spellcasting in that case. Same with rogue-mage and the Arcane Trickster PrC.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Lord Pendragon]

The problem is that spellcasting enjoys a greater than linear growth in power: it gives more spells to cast, a greater variety of spells, spells of higher level and better level-dependent values. Falling behind hurts a lot and the Practiced Spellcasting feat only gives you back the fourth point.

This is really the key, IMO. A spellcasting level improves a spellcaster's abilities in so many ways that losing that boost is more detrimental than it first seems. It's not losing one bonus, it's losing several.

That said, if you can gain several bonuses as a result of that lost spellcaster levels, then it can still be a fair deal. For instance, the sorcerer might take two levels of paladin for +3 to Fort Saves, Cha bonus to all saves, detect evil at will, +2 BAB, simple and martial weapon proficiency, all armor and shield proficiency, lay on hands, and Smite Evil 1/day. Sure, he delays his spell progression, but he's gaining a lot of bonuses for the bonuses he's giving up.

It comes down to recognizing that spellcasting levels are more than a single bonus/ability, and getting equal value from whatever you're buying with them.

 

[Victim]

The answer is a big "It depends." Let's say we have level 20 characters: one is a level 20 wizard and the other casts as a level 19 wizard and has some nifty benefit. Honestly, the level 19 caster isn't at that much of a disadvantage. The pure caster has a few more spells but both characters already have a bunch of them (even several 9th level spells). A feat or magic item can easily cover the gap there. So losing one caster level isn't a big deal? No. Let's look at the same characters earlier in their careers. Half the time, the character behind a caster level will be lacking higher level spells. Since characters will have fewer spells total, having a few less has a proportionately greater impact. That one caster level loss is a much bigger hit at level 5 or so. So whether or not a trade of a caster level is worth it can even depend on when you do it.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I think the key is that if you are banking on your spellcasting as your primary offensive competency, then losing a spellcasting level is a very big deal. It better be a sweet PrC to justify that hit.

Typically, you lose two of your top spell slots right off the bat. A Wizard that delays 7th level is giving up two 4th level spell per day. A Wizard that delays 8th level is giving up a 4th level and a 3rd level slot. That is giving up a lot of flexibilty as well as raw power.

As a practical matter, it often means that the Wizard does not have the right spell for the right job. IME with dungeon crawls my Wizard would be effectively "tapped out" after only casting ~2/3 of my spells. Those two top spell slots may not seem like a lot at the beginnign of the day, but it feels like a huge deal after two or three fights.

If you use your spells mostly for defense and support, including buffing, you have more flexibility. Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters usually built their offense around their other talents, even if they do throw the occasional Fireball.

 

[Jack Simth]

Definately depends on where the character is; an epic CL 25 cleric 20/Heriophant 5 loses very, very little ... some turning, and a little BAB. A CL 18 cleric 13/Heriophant 5 loses a lot of spells - can't cast anything over 7th, when a striaght Cleric 18 would be throwing around 9th level spells.

Virtually any epic character can afford to lose caster levels when the drop doesn't drop the caster level below 20 - as no caster gets new spell slots past 20th, spontaneous casters don't get new spells past 20th, and prepared casters either have their full list already (Clerics and similar) or can get spells from found scrolls (Wizards and similar) (barring feats, of course). Sure... at epic, losing those 4 spells known from your spellbook to pick up a level of fighter and start in on Eldritch Knight is annoying.... (and a Sor 20/Ftr 1/EK X doesn't even lose that - just some of the caster level dependant effects) but it's hardly going to hurt. At mid-high levels (non-epic) that same reduction is going to drop you a full level of spells behind a "pure" caster (Note that Wiz 7/Loremaster X is "pure" as Loremaster has full Spell Progression).

 

[Kobold Stew]

I guess I am thinking not at the top levels, but of actually playing it up through the ranks, and remain the priomary caster. Particularly, I'm thinking of losing them right away, at level 1, as in my Barb-1 idea.

I like Lord Pendragon's suggestion of two Paladin levels for a sorcerer; complimentary use of stats for a big bonus to saves, etc.

I recognize that, e.g., losing two fourth-level spells hurts. I'm thinking though that it might be offset by having the extra hitpoints, saves, etc, in the course of day to day adventuring.

More ideas?


Kobold Stew.

 

[Thanee]

Well, one level of Barbarian (plus Extra Rage) is enough to give you reasonable fighting prowess for a good while. Enough to get along until you can qualify for Eldritch Knight.

Paladin 2/Sorcerer 6 is also good, because of the Charisma synergy, of course, as is a level of Fighter or Ranger on your way to Eldritch Knight; just depends on what you want, really.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Rystil Arden]

I guess I am thinking not at the top levels, but of actually playing it up through the ranks, and remain the priomary caster. Particularly, I'm thinking of losing them right away, at level 1, as in my Barb-1 idea.

I like Lord Pendragon's suggestion of two Paladin levels for a sorcerer; complimentary use of stats for a big bonus to saves, etc.

I recognize that, e.g., losing two fourth-level spells hurts. I'm thinking though that it might be offset by having the extra hitpoints, saves, etc, in the course of day to day adventuring.

More ideas?


Kobold Stew.

As others have said, the added bonuses are not worth the price unless you were already planning on being a fighter/mage, in which case, you might as well take the Eldritch Knight PrC once you've taken the barbarian level to get all martial weapons. If you need more HP, you're best off point-buying higher Con or taking some kind of Toughness type feat (Hopefully Improved Toughness if you are level 3 or higher).