When is LA worth it?

[Inconsequenti-AL]

In a low point buy, creatures with high strength and constitution are actually better. Try out a 22 point buy bugbear L2 barbarian vs a human barbarian L6.

I'd go bugbear. Or ogre. Or whatever else fits that criteria.

And with rolling, if you can move your stats around, there isn't really a difference. Dump Int, Dex and Chr. Done.

That's rather what I was trying to get at! Must've got my language confused - I quite agree: Low point buy's definitely make LA races a 'better deal'...

A minotaur sorcerer? That's like playing a satyr bard/rogue/druid. Did the player have a deathwish?

It was a shame... he had a great concept and backstory, but the player was new to the 3.0 system. I tried to explain what would happen - but he wanted to go ahead with it anyway - which I can understand.

Was a very suboptimal character, although it was a lot of fun... just felt a shame that it never quite lived up to his concept.

I would probably have used the idea someone posted above - i.e. Lowering the LA for this combination of class and race - if I'd thought about it at the time.

 

[glass]

When is an LA worth it?

When it is the LA of an anthropomorphic whale. Seriously, those things are nuts: +6 to several ability scores (and no penalties at all), size large, +9 natural armour, all for +1 LA and 3 monstrous humanoid HD. One guy brought an anthropomorphic whale monk with a VoP to a game I was playing in. It had AC 37 at 6th level*.

*This was actually a mistake, because he had more feats than he should have, but his AC was still monstrous!


glass.

 

[Pax]

Only weapons and armor don't modify. Everything else does.

Not according to the SRD, nor the MM. MM1 page 176, under "creating a lycanthrope", says:

Alternate form (Su): A lycanthrope can shift into animal form as though using the polymorph spell, though it's gear is unaffected.

"Gear" means far more than just armor and weapons.

Why would you ever leave bear form? (Rhetorical question. Obviously, two times a day you need to change to human to get some high-fantasy role-playing in, so that you can weep about it for years afterwards. )

Want to buy armor? magic items? food? Got to stop being a "monster", and look normal for the benefit of the nice little superstitious villagers.

Or why would you ever leave hybrid form? (Rhetorical as well.)

See above. Also, to avoid detection by Rangers with the favored enemy choice "lycanthrope".

Why would you use weapons when you can grapple?

Because the target has a high DR, and your natural weapons cannot penetrate it?

Because the target is REALLY big (as in, gargantuan or more)?

That is a +16 to Strength! (+8 mod, +4 from animal HD, -1 size is far better than a 9th level fighter could have.) You are large! I'd saw off my right yin-yang to play one of these!

Right, size large. Which means a 5' wide corridor, ~10' tall (typical castle/dungeon corridor, in other words), will result in your being Squeezed.

And god forbid you go into a kobold nest ... where the BIG corridors are 5' wide and only 5' tall. That is even WORSE for you.

Smallfry don't tend to make big, wide corridors so that it's easier for the big guys to come inside and slaughter them.

I think there is a mistaken impression that the only effective grapplers are monks. Anything with a natural attack, that is large (enlarge person works now woohoo!), with improved grab, and a high strength works just as well. Pinning an opponent (spellcasters especially) is the same as a dead opponent.

Silent Teleport - end of grapple.

Already active Lutzaen's Frequent Jaunt - end of grapple.

Mestil's Acid Sheath up and running - grapple me all you want, sucker, I hope you're immune to acid!

And so on. Spellcasters of 13th or higher level have plenty of ways to either get out of a grapple, or make the grappler regret their decision ...

Again with the weapons? Why? A natural attack with improved grab, and, a +16 Str and large nonetheless. It screams, "I grapple you! I eat you!"

And the Mineral Warrior (DR 8/adamantine, +1 LA) loves that. A simple adamantine dagger does wonders. Or the cleric, with Righteous Might running (and DR 15/good or 15/evil), who likes your choice to grapple even more. Your strength damage bonus is more than overrun by damage reductions like that - damage reductiosn you could overcome with a weapon, but not typically with a natural attack.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

I don't think so. In one game I'm in we are all half dragons, and it's not that great. I'm the equivilent of 4th level yet I only got 15 HPs.....I've played 4th level wizards with more HPS....

Yeah, but what are your stat mods? What's your AC? How much damage can you do with a breath weapon? When's the last time you were affected by a charm person? Have you noticed that you have three powerful natural attacks?

If anything, the half-dragon is under-priced at +3.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

"Gear" means far more than just armor and weapons.

I think you are intentionally misunderstanding me. Lycantropes can take off their stuff, alternate form, then put their stuff back on (with the help of their party.)

Want to buy armor? magic items? food? Got to stop being a "monster", and look normal for the benefit of the nice little superstitious villagers.

Not really. Why can't the other people in my party buy stuff for me?

And I can't go into town as my companion's pet bear? Blah.

See above. Also, to avoid detection by Rangers with the favored enemy choice "lycanthrope".

Lol, same reason we are all rushing to buy hats of disguise.

Because the target has a high DR, and your natural weapons cannot penetrate it?

So you hold onto the BBEG and let your buddies take care of it.

Because the target is REALLY big (as in, gargantuan or more)?

And a normal tank should go up against something REALLY big? Blah.

Right, size large. Which means a 5' wide corridor, ~10' tall (typical castle/dungeon corridor, in other words), will result in your being Squeezed.

And you have no choice about whether or not to follow said corridor? I see the railroad on the horizon...

And god forbid you go into a kobold nest ... where the BIG corridors are 5' wide and only 5' tall. That is even WORSE for you.

And I wait outside.

God forbid you go into a REAL kobold nest...where the BIG corridors are 3' wide and 3' tall. I'm sure the humans won't have any problems.

Besides, we are talking about 9th level and beyond right?

Smallfry don't tend to make big, wide corridors so that it's easier for the big guys to come inside and slaughter them.

And this is a GIANT problem.

Silent Teleport - end of grapple.

Already active Lutzaen's Frequent Jaunt - end of grapple.

Mestil's Acid Sheath up and running - grapple me all you want, sucker, I hope you're immune to acid!

And so on. Spellcasters of 13th or higher level have plenty of ways to either get out of a grapple, or make the grappler regret their decision ...

And this has nothing to do with anything I said. I am comparing a typical tank with a werebear. All of the things you mention also work versus typical tanks. What IS your point?

And the Mineral Warrior (DR 8/adamantine, +1 LA) loves that. A simple adamantine dagger does wonders. Or the cleric, with Righteous Might running (and DR 15/good or 15/evil), who likes your choice to grapple even more. Your strength damage bonus is more than overrun by damage reductions like that - damage reductiosn you could overcome with a weapon, but not typically with a natural attack.

And I'm sure there isn't a SINGLE magic item in the whole game that allows you to overcome DR as per those materials. Such as the Ring of Adamantine touch in the BoED...

 

[James McMurray]

Since we're talking about Kobold lairs, I'll plug my Story Hour where the party decided to try to take on a kobold lair at 3rd level.

The link is in the Sig (Little Psionic Keep on the Borderlands).

 

[Pax]

I think you are intentionally misunderstanding me. Lycantropes can take off their stuff, alternate form, then put their stuff back on (with the help of their party.)

And I don't generally allow digitigrade lycanthropes to wear boots, for example - unless the boot was built for such a foot in the first place. Resize to fit a foot of the same general size, shape, and structure? Sure. Fit an otherwise significantly-different body part whose only real resemblance is the possession of toes, and use for walking/running?

IMO that'd be like putting boots on your horse, or nailing horseshoes to your foot. Neither one would work especially well.

Not really. Why can't the other people in my party buy stuff for me?

Because "the other people" are likely to have their OWN business to conduct, and might get tired of doing all of YOUR shopping as well. Several characters I've played owuld have charged you a 10% "finder's fee" for their time and effort.

And for things like armor, you rather have to BE there, so that the armorer can properly fit the stuff to your body.

And I can't go into town as my companion's pet bear? Blah.

Menagerie Law - wild animals, tamed or not, are not permitted within city limits except in a cage, and even then, a permit/license costing XXXgp must be purchased at least two days in advance of the creature's entry, and is only available to properly certified/warranted animal handlers (a process taken care of by the appropriate guild(s)).

Lol, same reason we are all rushing to buy hats of disguise.

Right. So, which sort of monstrous humanoid will you be disguising yourself as, again ... ?

So you hold onto the BBEG and let your buddies take care of it.

With a 50% chance to hit YOU instead.

And a normal tank should go up against something REALLY big? Blah.

What, you've never been a normal human fighting an Athach?

You've never faced a dragon more than three years out of it's egg?

And you have no choice about whether or not to follow said corridor? I see the railroad on the horizon...

No railroad in sight, so you should probably get your eyes checked.

And I wait outside.

Fine, fine, not a problem -- although, having just passed up the opportunity to participate in several encounters (which your fellow PC's perhaps do not pass up), you lose out on XP and a share of the resultant loot. Your choice; as a GM, Iw on't be railroaded into NOT making corridors be the appropriate size relative to their makers, just because someone else WANTS to be bigger than the usual PHB races.

God forbid you go into a REAL kobold nest...where the BIG corridors are 3' wide and 3' tall. I'm sure the humans won't have any problems.

No, those aren't the big ones, those're the smallish ones. A standard Kobold corridor should be about 3' wide, and about 4' high. Gnomes and halflings (also size small) shoudl be fine; dwarves, elves, half-elves, humans, and half-orcs will all suffer being squeezed, and your lycanthrope is going to need to grease up in order to get through. *shrug*

A 5x5-cross-section corridor is to a Small creature, as a 10x10 corridor would be to a Medium-sized creature: a large hallway. *shrug*

Besides, we are talking about 9th level and beyond right?

Yep. And I've had a long-standing challenge, to take low-EPIC characters into a Kobold lair. If I could afford to, I'd offer a modest cash PRIZE, for anyone who survived long enough to REACH the final encounter - let alone survive THAT.

And this is a GIANT problem.

You wanna play a big guy, you pay the price of admission and lump it. Or ... don't play it.

And this has nothing to do with anything I said. I am comparing a typical tank with a werebear. All of the things you mention also work versus typical tanks. What IS your point?

A "typical tank" isn't going to grapple in the first place - he's going to prefer to beat on the spellcaster as best s/he can, and keep said 'caster in their Threatened area so that they get AoO's to ruin spells with.

But that tends to involve wielding a weapon; you were the one that insisted on grappling and fighting sans weapons, not me.

And I'm sure there isn't a SINGLE magic item in the whole game that allows you to overcome DR as per those materials. Such as the Ring of Adamantine touch in the BoED...

Which is why I said typically, as you apparently didn't note.

 

[James McMurray]

Right. So, which sort of monstrous humanoid will you be disguising yourself as, again ... ?

There is nothing about the hat of disguise that forces you to use a monstrous humanoid as the disguise, even if you yourself are one.

With a 50% chance to hit YOU instead.

Only with ranged attacks. Melee attacks don't have that problem.

Yep. And I've had a long-standing challenge, to take low-EPIC characters into a Kobold lair. If I could afford to, I'd offer a modest cash PRIZE, for anyone who survived long enough to REACH the final encounter - let alone survive THAT.

Tell me what level to make. I won't even prepare for it, but I can gaurantee you that a standard kobold lair (i.e. no epic kobolds and no paragon kobolds) will not be a challenge for any epic character unless it has many features which no normal kobold could ever create or afford.

A "typical tank" isn't going to grapple in the first place - he's going to prefer to beat on the spellcaster as best s/he can, and keep said 'caster in their Threatened area so that they get AoO's to ruin spells with.

IMX grappling is a much better option for a tank, even if he doesn't have Improved GRapple. The primary benefit is that it prevents most spellcasting altogether, and forces concentration checks for all the ones that aren't prevented. Since that concentration check is 5 higher DC than casting defensively, the enemy is much more likely to fail (unless his concentation is so high that he'll never fail either). And of course, standing in someone's face means they can just move away before casting and avoid AoOs altogether (usually via a 5' step unless you've got a reach weapon).

I do agree that being a monster race and/or large sized has its hinderances. IMC most large cities and key outposts will have some form of magic on their entrances which dispels or momentarily suppresses illusion and transmutation magic. It helps immensely in keeping out those pesky orcs with their hats of disguise.

 

[Pax]

There is nothing about the hat of disguise that forces you to use a monstrous humanoid as the disguise, even if you yourself are one.

The Hat of Disguise works as per Alter Self, no? Well, that spells pecifies that you can only appear to be a being of yrou own type. If your type is monstrous humanoid, you can only look like another monstrous humanoid.

Tell me what level to make. I won't even prepare for it, but I can gaurantee you that a standard kobold lair (i.e. no epic kobolds and no paragon kobolds) will not be a challenge for any epic character unless it has many features which no normal kobold could ever create or afford.

Actually, the epic version is quite plain about there being a single Epic-scale kobold (who has Legendary Commander, and his cohort and followers form the Lair's population). By himself, he'd be a moderately challenging (but not overwhelming) encounter for the entire party of four PCs (IOW, he's about 4-5 levels higher than the PCs are).

I never said it was a "normal" kobold lair, keep that in mind (whatever "normal" means). It's a kobold lair that is intended to be, as a whole, an appropriate dungeon crawl for the level of the party going in to it. And largely, the advantage is in terms of terrain. The Kobolds have the home turf advantage, and know how to use it.

 

[James McMurray]

The Hat of Disguise works as per Alter Self, no?

No.

It works as per Disguise Self, which works as per the Disguise rules, which mention nothing about types.

Actually, the epic version is quite plain about there being a single Epic-scale kobold (who has Legendary Commander, and his cohort and followers form the Lair's population). By himself, he'd be a moderately challenging (but not overwhelming) encounter for the entire party of four PCs (IOW, he's about 4-5 levels higher than the PCs are).

Sounds like fun. Why not set up a game for it over at RPOL? I'll happily join, and I bet we'd get a few other takers from Exodus there as well.