When is LA worth it?

[Inconsequenti-AL]

One other aspect of LA I don't think I've seen discussed here is the character creation systems... At 2 extremes I've been involved in - one DM gave us a 22 point buy. Another had, and I kid you not, Roll 6D6 - Drop lowest 3 - 9 sets of this - drop lowest 3.

Guess which one made +LA characters a stronger choice?

IMO, +LA becomes stronger in point buy systems, where you can plan things? The lower the PB, the stronger an adjustment is. Even at 32 points a +4 adjustment is going to be really noticable?


I've seen a Minotaur Sorceror in a game I ran - wish I'd thought to cut the player a break with the LA for that one - was a cool concept, but at ~14th level it wasn't particularly effective. Dammit for good ideas in hindsight!

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

And unlike most shapechanging, a Lycanthropic alternate form does NOT modify yoru equipment. So if you're gonna play a werebear - get used to not wearing armor, nor wielding weapons. Possibly doable for a Monk, or a warrior type with the Vow of Poverty, but MUCH harder for others to pull off.

Only weapons and armor don't modify. Everything else does.

Why would you ever leave bear form? (Rhetorical question. Obviously, two times a day you need to change to human to get some high-fantasy role-playing in, so that you can weep about it for years afterwards. )

Or why would you ever leave hybrid form? (Rhetorical as well.)

Why would you use weapons when you can grapple?

That is a +16 to Strength! (+8 mod, +4 from animal HD, -1 size is far better than a 9th level fighter could have.) You are large! I'd saw off my right yin-yang to play one of these!

I think there is a mistaken impression that the only effective grapplers are monks. Anything with a natural attack, that is large (enlarge person works now woohoo!), with improved grab, and a high strength works just as well. Pinning an opponent (spellcasters especially) is the same as a dead opponent.

I was thinking of having the weapons and armor made for the hybrid form (which is the one that has the best advantages anyway). It can be carted around on a horse when the character is not actively adventuring.

True, this does mean that the character is vunerable to surprise in the right setting and changing into a bear won't always help.

But for LA to be worth it he has to average as good as a regular fighter. I think that a werebear could hit this criterion even with the 6 useless levels of bear.

Again with the weapons? Why? A natural attack with improved grab, and, a +16 Str and large nonetheless. It screams, "I grapple you! I eat you!"

Vulnerable to surprise? Bleh...

Anything that would worry a wearbear about surprise would probably TPK the whole party. (Especially if the bad guys know enough about the party makeup to bring silver weapons.)

Even without armor, a wearbear has a +7 natural armor that stacks with an enhancement bonus. Can fighter-boy do that?

I'd much rather have a werebear tank in my party than a 9th level human fighter (or barbarian, or ranger, or paladin, or monk, or bard.)

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

One other aspect of LA I don't think I've seen discussed here is the character creation systems... At 2 extremes I've been involved in - one DM gave us a 22 point buy. Another had, and I kid you not, Roll 6D6 - Drop lowest 3 - 9 sets of this - drop lowest 3.

Guess which one made +LA characters a stronger choice?

IMO, +LA becomes stronger in point buy systems, where you can plan things? The lower the PB, the stronger an adjustment is. Even at 32 points a +4 adjustment is going to be really noticable?

In a low point buy, creatures with high strength and constitution are actually better. Try out a 22 point buy bugbear L2 barbarian vs a human barbarian L6.

I'd go bugbear. Or ogre. Or whatever else fits that criteria.

And with rolling, if you can move your stats around, there isn't really a difference. Dump Int, Dex and Chr. Done.

I've seen a Minotaur Sorceror in a game I ran - wish I'd thought to cut the player a break with the LA for that one - was a cool concept, but at ~14th level it wasn't particularly effective. Dammit for good ideas in hindsight!

A minotaur sorcerer? That's like playing a satyr bard/rogue/druid. Did the player have a deathwish?

 

[DM_Matt]

I once threw a Werebear Monk/Warshaper/Reaping Mauler at my PCs of their CR. He pinned both the monk and the paladin (in each arm, taking the -20) and knocked out the cleric 5 rounds in a row with his feet (the druid kept healing her)...The combat ended in a standoff between the reletively immobile werebear and the flying blaster wizard and druid, until they realized that it was all a misunderstanding.

 

[d20Dwarf]

When you have more (preferably a lot more) class levels than the LA. A half-dragon half-human Ftr3 (ECL 6) is just about on par with a human Ftr6, but a half-dragon half-human Ftr10 (ECL 13) is much more powerful than a human Ftr13.

I still don't think it's worth it, as by that level you can mimic most of the half-dragon's relevant advantages with a few cheap magic items. The highest I got was an ECL 10 (11?) 7th-level half-celestial paladin. That's bar none the best template in the MM, yet my lack of hit points was my ultimate downfall, even at that level. I just simply think you cannot make up for lost hit points.

 

[Trainz]

IMC my player plays a Minotaur fighter.

He, quite simply, rocks.

Large size, better reach, stats boost, search-spot-listen as class skills (you KNOW fighter skills suck), cannot be flat-footed, natural armor (that can stack with an amulet of natural armor), darkvision... only for a LA +2.

His six monster levels are actually nice: they give him a nice jump-start for reflex and will saves.

IMC, he went cheese... spiked chain (20' reach ! ! !), combat reflexes, improved trip. Let me tell you, my mooks spend most of their time flat on their butts. They can't even reach him and attack him in melee. If they decide to go with missile, he closes within 15 feet of them. As soon as they try to shoot *WHACK* AoO, trip, flat on their butts, free attack. If they try to back off *WHACK* AoO, trip, flat on their butts, free attack. If they take their melee and close on him through his threatened zone *WHACK* AoO, trip, flat on their butts, free attack.

His trip mod is Feat (+4), Strength (+10), Size (+4) = +18. It's so big that sometimes I throw at him large critters on four legs and he STILL trips them.

Insane.

There is the odd moment where he's squeezing in a 5' wide corridor, giving him a -4 penalty to hit and AC, but this doesn't really balances all the perks he got.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

I still don't think it's worth it, as by that level you can mimic most of the half-dragon's relevant advantages with a few cheap magic items.

But the whole point is that the half-dragon can spend that same gold on those same magic items to get even better.

The highest I got was an ECL 10 (11?) 7th-level half-celestial paladin. That's bar none the best template in the MM, yet my lack of hit points was my ultimate downfall, even at that level. I just simply think you cannot make up for lost hit points.

A +4 Con is equal to 14 hps at level 7. That isn't too far behind a level 11 character.

Assume a typical 11th level character (14 Con, +2 Con en= 16 Con total)
(4d10+ (4*3)) = 22+12 = 34 average

So you were 20 hps back...you can use the 16000 gp you saved on having wings to upgrade your Con item.


Agreed, a half-celestial isn't as good of a tank as a pure human (or dwarf). That would kinda defeat the purpose of the whole LA thingy. But your saving throws are nuts. (or should be, hmmm...I haven't asked you what your seven class levels were. I so hope they were paladin. Maybe cleric.)


Also, I think I have a different experience because I'm used to playing at higher levels. A half-dragon, half-celestial, ogre, minotaur, etc. start being awesome at higher levels. Especially when your bonus to Con starts being even with the HD you missed.

At L15, a +4 to Con is 30 hps. The same L19 human character has 42 hps (assuming 20 Con) for those 4 levels. You are only down 12.

 

[d20Dwarf]

But the whole point is that the half-dragon can spend that same gold on those same magic items to get even better.

Maybe ECLs do start to get better once you reach the ultra-high levels. By that point hit points are rarely what you need most anyway. You are right, as a Pal7 I did have some amazing saving throws. Of course, I flew into a hail of drow poison bolts because of my +19 or so to save vs. poison and I rolled a 1. I dropped to the ground, asleep, just in time for the 4 drow wizards to shoot fireballs or some crap into the room.

And I think half-celestials are hands down the best ECL you can have, some of the others just get stomped, especially the ones without that handy Con boost.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

Maybe ECLs do start to get better once you reach the ultra-high levels. By that point hit points are rarely what you need most anyway. You are right, as a Pal7 I did have some amazing saving throws. Of course, I flew into a hail of drow poison bolts because of my +19 or so to save vs. poison and I rolled a 1. I dropped to the ground, asleep, just in time for the 4 drow wizards to shoot fireballs or some crap into the room.

Ah, the joys of the d20...

And I think half-celestials are hands down the best ECL you can have, some of the others just get stomped, especially the ones without that handy Con boost.

Yeah, I will not play an ECL without either:

1) A bonus to Con and enough Str to even out the base attack bonus disparity. (Satyrs are silly. La, la, la, weapon finesse sucks.)

2) I'm playing a ranged support character. (Pixie rogue archers rule. Until true seeing at will, of course.)
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On a side note:

PARAGON FERAL ANNIS HAGS! AWESOME!

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

On a completely different note, but along the same train of thought... (I love mixing metaphors.)


I don't really like the reducing LAs variant in UA. Sure, it makes some LAs actually worth playing, but I fear that any LA with the qualities I described above is going to be better than the mundane PHB races.