When is LA worth it?

[Will]

I think AU's buy-off is key, since a lot of abilities become much less useful at higher levels. Like a drow's spell resistance. At high levels you can buy SR... maybe not quite as good, but man...

Another good thing are races with high Str and Con bonuses for fighterly types. Sure, your BAB and HD is lower, but having higher bonuses to add to both can put you ahead of the game.

 

[drnuncheon]

First: The LA buying off rules are in UA (Unearthed Arcana from WOTC), not AU (Arcana Unearthed from Malhavoc).

Second: Is there really any reason for this restriction:

(and if he doesn't take it NOW, he can never lower his LA)

Seems to me that if you waited, you'd just wind up paying more XP for the same effect. Would there be a benefit to waiting?

J

 

[Conaill]

I also had the idea that every LA is estimated against the best possible (mis)use of the race/template, which unfortunately cuts off many other interesting combinations.

That's correct, more or less. The "acid test" in SS is supposed to be done by adding one level of a character class which is most appropriate for the creature's highest stat. So LA estimates for a high-Dex creature will typically assume a Rogue build, High-Str creatures assume a Ftr or Brb build, etc.

Not sure how religiously the WotC stuck to this rule in estimating LA's, but the principle holds: LA estimates assume a somewhat optimized choice of character classes.

One other note about the "worth" of Level Adjustments: some special abilities decrease in utility as you go up in levels. SS actually has a section titled "As Levels Rise, Abilities Fade", where they specifically mention Natural Armor, Energy Resistance, Fast Healing / Regeneration, and Spell Resistance. If your creature has many such abilities that don't scale well with level it may still be somewhat balanced when it has only a single character class, but it will fall behind rapidly as the entire party goes up in levels.


Summary:

1) LA's are in general slightly overestimated

2) LA's assume an optimal character choice for the creature

3) LA estimates may be off by varying degrees once you start adding extra levels

 

[Li Shenron]

That's correct, more or less. The "acid test" in SS is supposed to be done by adding one level of a character class which is most appropriate for the creature's highest stat. So LA estimates for a high-Dex creature will typically assume a Rogue build, High-Str creatures assume a Ftr or Brb build, etc.

Not sure how religiously the WotC stuck to this rule in estimating LA's, but the principle holds: LA estimates assume a somewhat optimized choice of character classes.

I think it would be reasonable for a player to negotiate the LA with the DM if she wants to play the race/template with a non-optimal class, like a Minotaur Sorcerer or a Half-Dragon Rogue.

 

[Votan]

In what situations does it make sense to take a "powerful" race, with LA >0, rather than a standard one? I've been toying with the numbers a little bit, and so far it looks like the PH races usually come out ahead.

When you are playing a fighter.

A half dragon has +8 str, +2 con, +2 Int, + 2 cha. Plus a breath weapon and 4 points of natural armor. Plus cool immunities to sleep, paralysis and a major element. Plus darkvision.

After about level 3 of fighter it is impossible to make up for this bounty with extra feats. If you are a 2 handed weapon weilder that str is worth +8 to damage. The AC loss of no shield is made up for with natural armour.

Fighter have terrible will saves. Sleep and paralysis are common annoyances (hold person et al) that are nice to go away.

Fighter feats cannot compensate for this at higher levels. You loose a few hit points. Con helps a little bit. So does AC.

The same thing is true of an Oger (despite needing 4 useless giant levels) -- the strength, con and natural armor are just too good (not to mention the size).

A troll looks interesting but has just too high of an effective level to really work -- this is where this nice system begins to fail. But I'd even consider a Troll fighter over a human in a 15th level campaign. Troll 6 HD giant, 4th level fighter but all damage is subdual.

 

[Pax]

No, Votan. a +8 strength accounts for an extra +4 strength BONUS, which for a 2H weapon, produces +6.

That Troll Fighter(4), by the way, has other worries than you seem to account for. Fire and Acid don't produce subdual damage, they produce real damage.

There's also the fact that the troll will have lower save bonusses ( base 9/3/3) than the human (base 9/5/5); not all that many extra hitpoints (assuming each starts with a 10 CON before race, the troll will have 6d8+4d10+60, the human will have 15d10 - averaging 112.5 for the troll, and 87 for the human); a much lower BAB (+8 for the troll, +15 for the human); far fewer feats (7 for the troll, 15 for the human); fewer skills at a lower maximum rank than the human (skill points will be 1 per level/HD for the dumb troll, 3 per level/HD for the human - assuming each starts with a 10INT before racial modifiers; max ranks will be 13 for the troll, and 18 for the human).

The troll has advantages, yes. But ... walk into town. Teh human can walk in,no problem, at most he may be asked to leave his weapons at the gate.

The troll, if he gets within a half mile of those gates, will prompt the assembly of at least one hunting party, who will scoure the countryside with plenty of acid and vials of alchemist's fire (and spellcasters galore, if available), with no other purpose than to reduce the troll to a smoldering pile of stinking ash.

Now that, sir, is a disadvantage.

 

[Votan]

No, Votan. a +8 strength accounts for an extra +4 strength BONUS, which for a 2H weapon, produces +6.
[/i]

My apologies. You are correct about the +6 insteaxd of +8 figure. i was thinking power attack which is a different beast entirely.

 

[James McMurray]

IIRC there is a feat that gives x2 strength damage instead of x1.5, bu it might be a class ablity of te Exotic Weapon Master instead of a feat.

 

[Votan]

That Troll Fighter(4), by the way, has other worries than you seem to account for. Fire and Acid don't produce subdual damage, they produce real damage.

There's also the fact that the troll will have lower save bonusses ( base 9/3/3) than the human (base 9/5/5); not all that many extra hitpoints (assuming each starts with a 10 CON before race, the troll will have 6d8+4d10+60, the human will have 15d10 - averaging 112.5 for the troll, and 87 for the human); a much lower BAB (+8 for the troll, +15 for the human); far fewer feats (7 for the troll, 15 for the human); fewer skills at a lower maximum rank than the human (skill points will be 1 per level/HD for the dumb troll, 3 per level/HD for the human - assuming each starts with a 10INT before racial modifiers; max ranks will be 13 for the troll, and 18 for the human).

The troll has advantages, yes. But ... walk into town. Teh human can walk in,no problem, at most he may be asked to leave his weapons at the gate.

The troll, if he gets within a half mile of those gates, will prompt the assembly of at least one hunting party, who will scoure the countryside with plenty of acid and vials of alchemist's fire (and spellcasters galore, if available), with no other purpose than to reduce the troll to a smoldering pile of stinking ash.

Now that, sir, is a disadvantage.

True. The Troll, btw, was the example that I was the most mixed about.

I am not arguing that the Troll is better in all aspects. It is just that fighter feats begin to get less impressive at high levels. Large strength bonuses are better than feats by a fair margin.

The Ogre has the same issues as the Troll in towns.

But a half dragon might not.

And for insanity, a Werebear seemed interesting. LA +3. Strength +16, Dex +2 Con +8 in werebear form (plus +2 Wis). DR (that is easily breached but not always trivial). 10 foot reach.

And (s)he can be human in town.

 

[James McMurray]

Don't forget that the werebear gets to include his animal hit dice into his ECL. Lycanthropes are much less attractive nowadays.