When is the skill check made?

[Bacon Bits]

For tasks that take time, when is the skill check made? Is it made over that whole duration? Or at the end? Or...?

As a rule, I would not sweat the details to this level. The timing of the check is not related to the event. The check merely represents the outcome of the event.

One reason I ask is that in another thread, a few posters suggested that a spell like guidance should not work on a task that takes longer than one minute. Implying that the check is made over the duration of the task, rather than at the end. (Because, were it at the end, then couldn't the guidance caster wait until just before the end?)

I think this interpretation leads to imagining that guidance is in operation over the whole 1 minute; but how about bardic inspiration? With inspiration, one has 10 minutes to use the die. I think this interpretation means something like - the task would need to start and resolve completely inside that 10 minutes. Looking then at Lucky, I think this interpretation means that the feat is used at the last possible moment - the instant of task completion. Because, to be consistent, I think we want all the buffs and re-rolls to be occurring inside the task duration.

A residual question is, is it that only one cast of guidance and one inspiration die can be used for a given task? What I mean is, could a magical initiate cast guidance at the start of a 2 minute task, and then recast it 30 seconds in, and then again after another 30 seconds, and then again. Thus with four casts spanning the whole 2 minutes.

Again, my instincts say, "This is too much level of detail and is not something you should be concerning yourself with." I legitimately do not believe the designers put this much thought into either of these abilities, primarily because the only timing concern in D&D is with reaction abilities and initiative. You certainly can run your game such that 1 minutes is the cap for guidance, and 10 minutes is the cap for Bardic Inspiration, but I don't think that's necessary nor do I think it's what's intended. I suppose there is ludo-narrative dissonance if you want everything to be hyper-literal or extremely specific, but I don't see why the game should or would necessarily be that way. It's a very gamist style of DMing rather than narrative, and I'm much more narratively focused.

I would rule that as long as the task begins, continues or ends within the time limit of the spell or inspiration, then the player may chose to use the spell effect or ability effect with that check.

As DM, I would examine what the likely design intent of the time limit rule is. IMO, the primary design intent is to prevent casting the spell or granting inspiration and then having it around for hours of the game day, effectively making it a permanent effect until used.

Narratively, the cantrip is directly asking your deity for aid with a particular task that another is doing, and whether the deity is affecting the target of the spell from beginning to end or changing the world in your favor at the end, it does not particularly matter. As such, to me the design intent of the cantrip is that it should be useful when the cleric is immediately available to request their deity for aid. In other words, the cleric must be present for the encounter and must also spend an action. It's really a spell equivalent of the Help action, with a very small bit of extra time for practicality purposes. Still, the spell's duration implicitly says, "Something that happens during this encounter while the cleric and his subject are present." The limitation also makes it fairly impractical for use during combat (or, at least, no more practical than the Help action itself is). It's also of fairly limited use during social encounters because it's a little aggressive to start casting spells -- even blessings -- when one of your party members is just asking questions (remember, it's verbal, somatic, and range touch). To say it looks sketchy to cast in the middle of a Diplomatic check would be putting it mildly. Not that you couldn't use social skills with the cantrip, just that it's much harder to set up.

The design intent of Bardic Inspiration allows more leeway, simply because an inspiration die is a much higher cost than a cantrip action. Otherwise, it's largely the same idea. You might be able to activate it in one encounter and not use it until the next encounter if your party doesn't stop to search. You're also much more reasonably able to use it before a social encounter and still have it be useful for quite some time.

Bottom line, though, it doesn't really matter either way as long as you're consistent. Though, if you rule that guidance only works on tasks that take less than a minute and then arbitrarily rule that most tasks take more than 1 minute, you're just soft banning the spell. It would be better to alter the spell or outright ban it.

 

[Hriston]

Right, the spell and the task both have a duration which exists in the game world. But the ability check doesn't and isn't connected to any specific time in the game world. To me, that means the tasks needs to be accomplished during the duration of the spell. The side effect is that guidance is still useful, but on a smaller range of tasks, and spamming goes away. In a pragmatic sense, this looks to me as evidence this is the correct call. (Notably, I didn't make this call because I had a spamming issue either. It was just how I understood the rules to work and so I never had the issue. I have seen plenty of it in other games though and it's reported on the internet regularly as an issue.)



I would say that's presentation, yes. But let's say a character undertakes a task that will take 2 hours. As long as someone comes along and casts guidance on that character at some point in the undertaking of that task, even if the spell only lasts for 1 minute, that character's player gets to add a d4 to the ability check? Is that your position?

No, it isn’t. My position is that as long as the fictional state at the table, either when a check is called for or immediately after, is that guidance has been cast within the last minute in the fiction, then the player gets to add a d4 to the check.

 

[iserith]

No, it isn’t. My position is that as long as the fictional state at the table, either when a check is called for or immediately after, is that guidance has been cast within the last minute in the fiction, then the player gets to add a d4 to the check.

I'm having a hard time picturing what this looks like for the two-hour task I mentioned. Can you provide some details?

 

[Bacon Bits]

I'm having a hard time picturing what this looks like for the two-hour task I mentioned. Can you provide some details?

He's talking about the state of play at the table, not the state of the narrative.

He's saying the state of play at the table is like this:

Dwarf: I'm going to draw up plans for the castle. I want to be able to replicate some of the designs.
DM: Okay, that will take a couple hours, some paper, some ink, and a length of rope to draw up something usable.
Dwarf: Okay. I've got all that.
DM: Make an Intelligence check. Everyone else can short rest.
Dwarf: I get a 14. Wait, do I get Stonecunning?
DM: Hm. Sure.
Dwarf: Then I get a 17 because of double proficiency.
DM: (Makes a note.) You have plans of the castle. You think they're pretty good.

At any point during this exchange, or shortly before or after, the Cleric or Bard can say:

Cleric: I cast guidance on the Dwarf.
Bard: I give the Dwarf an inspiration die.

Conversely, the state of the narrative is like this:

Tordek the Dwarf looks over the castle, and nods to himself.

"I need a minute or two to look over this mighty keep. Though it is nought but ruins now, it's historical significance is legendary. The tales say that barely 20 men -- green and with little food -- held these walls against a thousand orcs for a fortnight before they were relived by our Stone Mountain clans," he says. "What humans lack in experience they make up for with ingenuity and bravery."

His companions agree to wait, and they stretch out to relax. As Tordek works, Devis the Bard begins playing his Song of Rest. Jozan the Cleric soon notices Tordek intends to produce plans. Jozan stands and walks over to Tordek.

Jozan touches Tordek on the shoulder and makes the sign of his god, saying, "May Pelor's light bring insight to this undertaking, my friend. Pelor's light be with you and aid you and bring you comfort." Though it lasts only a few moments, the effects seem to endure and Tordek moves more resolve.

Devis finishes his song of healing, and notices Tordek still hard at work. Devis begins chanting an old Dwarven masonic work song. Soveliss's elven ears twitch at the somewhat plain rhythmic melody, but he says nothing. Tordek looks up and smiles at Devis, falls into the rhythm of his people. He begins humming the melody the common Dwarven melody as a musical round accompaniment -- and only slightly off tune. Soveliss's ears twitch again.

 

[iserith]

@Hriston Is the above in accordance with how you see it?

 

[Umbran]

There's a point in worrying about RAW, where you just say, "Darn it, let's just do something reasonable."

 

[Bacon Bits]

There's a point in worrying about RAW, where you just say, "Darn it, let's just do something reasonable."

I call this the, "Okay, let's just shut up and roll dice," moment. The game is about the roleplaying, not about navigating the rules. I used to find both of those things fun, but now that my job involves a fair amount of interpreting and following requirements defined by state and federal law I have much less interest in doing what the rules say as opposed to just deciding what the rules mean and moving on. The game is far more robust than the rules are, anyways.

 

[iserith]

I call this the, "Okay, let's just shut up and roll dice," moment. The game is about the roleplaying, not about navigating the rules. I used to find both of those things fun, but now that my job involves a fair amount of interpreting and following requirements defined by state and federal law I have much less interest in doing what the rules say as opposed to just deciding what the rules mean and moving on. The game is far more robust than the rules are, anyways.

I don't think the game is playable RAW since it's not precise enough in its language. At the same time, we are tasked by the DMG to mediate between the players and the rules and set limits from time to time. Though my game is anything but serious in tone, I do take the roles of DM and player very seriously because in my experience this avoids a lot of common problems.

My reading of the rules as a whole would say that if the task takes longer than a minute, guidance isn't going to help. Tordek in your example will not benefit from bardic inspiration either. There will be plenty of times when Tordek may benefit from these spells or class features, just not when he's drawing up that map over the course of two hours. For that, he might want to have Soveliss work together with him so that the player can get advantage on the check. Working together has no time limitation and only requires that Soveliss be able to do the same task on his own. This seems reasonable to me and does not have any serious impact on the narrative.

 

[clearstream]

You certainly can run your game such that 1 minutes is the cap for guidance, and 10 minutes is the cap for Bardic Inspiration, but I don't think that's necessary nor do I think it's what's intended.

I don't think it is intended either. For one thing, the option to roll the die prior to the check seems to make most sense if it is imagined the check might occur after the 1 minute.

I would rule that as long as the task begins, continues or ends within the time limit of the spell or inspiration, then the player may chose to use the spell effect or ability effect with that check.

That is how I have ruled, but it leads to the cantrip being applied more than feels good.

Narratively, the cantrip is directly asking your deity for aid with a particular task that another is doing, and whether the deity is affecting the target of the spell from beginning to end or changing the world in your favor at the end, it does not particularly matter. As such, to me the design intent of the cantrip is that it should be useful when the cleric is immediately available to request their deity for aid. In other words, the cleric must be present for the encounter and must also spend an action. It's really a spell equivalent of the Help action, with a very small bit of extra time for practicality purposes. Still, the spell's duration implicitly says, "Something that happens during this encounter while the cleric and his subject are present." The limitation also makes it fairly impractical for use during combat (or, at least, no more practical than the Help action itself is). It's also of fairly limited use during social encounters because it's a little aggressive to start casting spells -- even blessings -- when one of your party members is just asking questions (remember, it's verbal, somatic, and range touch). To say it looks sketchy to cast in the middle of a Diplomatic check would be putting it mildly. Not that you couldn't use social skills with the cantrip, just that it's much harder to set up.

I think that the creature the cantrip is cast on, and not the caster, decides what check to apply it to. For example - rogue "can I have guidance to help, um, search for secret doors", cleric "sure", rogue sotto voce "I add the d4 to my sleight of hand, pick pockets check".

 

[Hriston]

I'm having a hard time picturing what this looks like for the two-hour task I mentioned. Can you provide some details?

For a two-hour task, I think it would go something like this:

Player 1: Drom mans the oars and rows the party across the Boiling Lake.

DM: It’s three miles across the lake, so it’s going to take about two hours. Also the heat and fumes are going to make it difficult to propel the boat forward through the turbulent, bubbling waters. Make a DC 20 Constitution check. If you succeed, you make to the other side. If you fail, you’ll be stranded half way across the lake until you all figure something else out.

Player 1: Aw jeez, I rolled an 18.

Player 2: Seeing Drom beginning to falter, Elye puts a hand on the warrior’s back and casts guidance, entreating Marduk to grant him strength!

Player 1: Thanks, I’m going to use that. Alright, I rolled a 3!