When Players don't respect the DM's rules - Help!


log in or register to remove this ad

(Psi)SeveredHead said:
I didn't know that :)
Neither did I - my background research for this game was by necessity rather extensive.
(Psi)SeveredHead said:
It was the non-combatant angle that caught me. I don't know why someone couldn't design a fighting priest. (Alternatively, a Charismatic Hero who tries to inspire his buddies with religious fervor. I mean, I've done that with NPCs!)
Interestingly two of the four players opted for Charismatic heroes in this game - one is the medic and the other is bucking for sous-officier.

As I mentioned upthread, I floated a suggestion to the player of a former seminarian or priest who joined the Legion as a player character - that would've worked quite well. It wasn't the religious angle that was a problem, but rather the character's role in the unit.
LostSoul said:
Why would it fall on one of the guys in the group more than another?
Because one of those gamers - me - is doing the vast majority of the work to make the game possible in the first place.

When I'm a player in your game, I create characters that conform to your setting conceits and rules system preferences. If you're a player in mine, I expect the same courtesy in return.
LostSoul said:
I see it this way: your group has decided to empower the DM, giving him the ability to say No. Which is cool.

I don't see a problem coming up if a group doesn't give this power to the DM necessarily - I think the entire group could come to a consensus on what's cool for the game and what isn't. (The way I see it, that's what they've done anyway, by saying that the DM has that control.)
Interesting. I agree that there's an implicit power-sharing among all gamers, with the game master as primary (or final, or sole, depending on the gamers) authority representing one extreme of that continuum. And I agree that a consensus approach is certainly another feasible option for interested gamers - however, it's not my preferred approach, and if you join my game expecting a share of setting design or rules content selection, you are likely to be disappointed.

If a player would like me to consider adding something from a supplement, or changing a rule, I am certainly willing to give the request all reasonable consideration, but when I am the game master I am the ultimate arbiter and my decision is final - anyone not comfortable with that should probably look elsewhere for their entertainment.
 
Last edited:

Apologies in advance, because I'm probably going to repeat some things others have said. But here's my take on the situation you describe. This is long because I've quoted a couple of your posts so that I can put my analysis and advice next to the relevant sections:

Elephant said:
The second DM was also quite generous in material he allowed, and he later told me that he ended up using higher-CR creatures vs. the party in order to keep up the challenge.

I want to avoid this sort of nonsense, so my initial restriction is "PHB only, anything else, check with me, first."

Assumption: The 7 people you talk about are 6 players and 1 GM.

* You will have to raise the CR of the creatures and/or increase the ELs. CRs are geared for a party of the iconic four. You've got 6. That gives the PCs an advantage.

I also requested that players get their character sheets (or at least a statblock) to me via email. I wanted a chance to review characters before the game in order to get an idea of what the party would be like.

Most of my players have been really good about both of these things, but one has a serious attitude problem. Everyone was supposed to bring in two PCs at the beginning; he only sent me one set of stats before the game (and this *after* the deadline I'd tried to set). This degraded the game because his character was undefined (and I had all characters present for the initial scene).

* I'd be cautious about assuming that the one player has an attitude problem. It could be something as simple as poor communication skills.

* I'd probably let this one slide, provided it doesn't become a pattern. Later on in your posting(s) you indicate that it does become a pattern. I've had this happen to me multiple times before. So I implemented a table rule: If your character's basics aren't filled out before game start, the DM will fill them out for you. If you don't like the DM's choices, consider them the results of an evil witch's/warlock's curse that you can undo as a quest. This solves the problem in the future, and creates an instant plot hook for later use. If you hand out a copy of your house/table rules for the players before character creation, they can't say they weren't warned. This will also give you a good guage of what kind of players you have - Did they read the DM's handout or not?

Later, after one of his initial characters died (first-level PCs fighting a fiendish owlbear is NOT pretty - they stumbled into the wrong part of the dungeon), he told me that he tore up both character sheets and couldn't play his backup. While reviewing the new PC he wanted to play, I noticed that he still had that set of stats - he had used that printout as a template and written notes for his new character on it. Some of the numbers were partially obscured, but it looked usable to me.

* He accidentally tore up the backup character? Yep, definite warning sign.

* Numbers partially obscured on the character sheet so they're unreadable? Unacceptable. The DM shouldn't have to guess or get eyestrain reading his copy of the character sheet. (You did ask for ~copies~ of the sheets, right? So you have your own backup in case someone forgets theirs, or accidentally tears them up?)

During the most recent session, I told him that his new character was not usable in that session and offered him an NPC to run so he could still take part in the game. He got very upset and said he didn't want to run the NPC, he wanted to run his (unreviewed and unapproved) character, and he went upstairs, out of the gaming room. Since we were gaming at his house, I didn't feel comfortable going on without him, so I followed him and talked to him.

* Another warning sign. The best advice I can give is: Immediately start looking for another place to game. The location you are currently at has issues. Best to remove yourself from an uncomfortable situation.

* Question: Did the player storm off, or say, "Sorry guys. I'm not up for this tonight. Go ahead and play - I'm going to cool off" ?

He basically said that he couldn't have any fun running a core-only PC, that people enjoy having a lot of books and using material from them, and gave several examples of people using non-core material. He also said something like "If I can bring in a deck of many things into the game I ran to make things fun for the PCs, you can handle extra material in your game."

* Are other players (or NPCs, or monsters) in your current game using non-core material?

* If the answer above is No, then I think you're being emotionally blackmailed.

* If the answer above is Yes, did you approve of that material and let the other players know about it (and add it to your player handout)? If not, he's got a reason to gripe.

* What he does in his game has no bearing on what you do in yours. If he wants to DM, invite him to run his own game.

I ended up caving in and allowing his character for that session (I took 10 minutes to review it before starting the game, and the stats didn't bother me), and it ended up being a lot of fun. His character played a key role in the game that day, and it was a lot of fun for the whole group.

* IMO (and solely in my opinion) this was a mistake. You've now demonstrated that you won't follow your own rules and can be persuaded, blackmailed, played, call-it-what-you-will. A better way to handle it, in my opinion, is to stick to your guns - tell the player that you'll be happy to review his character *tomorrow* so he can play it in the next session. Note: For your group, this sort of thing might work out great - that's your call to make. IME, it creates problems in the long run.

However, I feel like I should not have caved. It's not about character stats, it's about this player not respecting me or my rules. I don't want to be unable to keep up with new material, especially new material from books I don't own.

* I think you may be confusing respect with simply following rules. Following a rule has little to do with respect - you follow the rules, or the DM changes the rules (like you did when you caved), or you don't play. This player may very well have a great deal of respect for you and your rules - he just doesn't want to follow them, and you've shown him that he doesn't have to.

* Your concerns about keeping up with new material from books you don't own are valid. Don't ever let anyone tell you otherwise. You can get around this by telling your group that you'll take a look at the optional material if someone will buy you a copy... otherwise, they'll have to wait until you can afford it yourself.

The most awkward part is, the problem player hosts the games, so I don't feel like I can lay down the law as much as I'd like to. If necessary, I can probably see about someone else hosting the game, but I'd prefer not to do so.

* That gives your "problem player" a distinct advantage that he has now used to great effect. Remove yourself and your group from the situation. Have someone else host, or preferrably find a neutral ground (college campus student center, for example). Try to pick one that's more centrally located. Rotate who hosts if you have to, so it's not unfair to any one person. All of these are reasonable and valid changes. If your problem player resists them - even if someone else will provide a carpool - then you may have to take more drastic steps, like recruiting a replacement player.

... I put a fair amount of work in trying to get the party together, assuming that it makes for a better game experience that random people don't just appear and disappear from the party roster. Then I have that work spit upon? No, thanks!

* Problem: You are taking your work too seriously. If this player wanted to insult you, he'd have used much more regrettable language than leaving the gaming table in anger/frustration. Wanting to change characters four sessions in is not spitting on your work. It's inconsiderate of all the effort you've put in as DM, yes. And you should be annoyed, but not outraged or insulted. I only have what you've posted in this thread to go by, so I will only add that you should think very carefully about taking this so personally. How will you take it if the super-cool plot you've got set up for the PC gets crushed because the player spurns the NPC's love or sells the McGuffin at a pawn shop?

I'll start chatting with the rest of the group about the rules more.

* An EXCELLENT idea! You may even want to talk with each player individually between games, in person, and ask them what they think of the game - what do they like, dislike, want to see more of, want to see less of, etc. This kind of feedback is invaluable to a DM.

I hope this helps. Good luck with your game!
 

This is mostly irrelevant now; I've ended the campaign. The stress of trying to deal with this problem player is too much, and I'd rather quit DMing than get into power plays about who stays and who gets kicked out - which is what it was about to devolve into.

merelycompetent said:
Apologies in advance, because I'm probably going to repeat some things others have said. But here's my take on the situation you describe. This is long because I've quoted a couple of your posts so that I can put my analysis and advice next to the relevant sections:

Assumption: The 7 people you talk about are 6 players and 1 GM.

* You will have to raise the CR of the creatures and/or increase the ELs. CRs are geared for a party of the iconic four. You've got 6. That gives the PCs an advantage.

Correct. I've been using the book's suggestions on bumping up encounters (usually adding an extra monster) to balance things.

* I'd be cautious about assuming that the one player has an attitude problem. It could be something as simple as poor communication skills.

* I'd probably let this one slide, provided it doesn't become a pattern. Later on in your posting(s) you indicate that it does become a pattern. I've had this happen to me multiple times before. So I implemented a table rule: If your character's basics aren't filled out before game start, the DM will fill them out for you. If you don't like the DM's choices, consider them the results of an evil witch's/warlock's curse that you can undo as a quest. This solves the problem in the future, and creates an instant plot hook for later use. If you hand out a copy of your house/table rules for the players before character creation, they can't say they weren't warned. This will also give you a good guage of what kind of players you have - Did they read the DM's handout or not?

*yoink* Good rule. In the future, should I happen to run a game again, I'll use something very like that.

* He accidentally tore up the backup character? Yep, definite warning sign.

* Numbers partially obscured on the character sheet so they're unreadable? Unacceptable. The DM shouldn't have to guess or get eyestrain reading his copy of the character sheet. (You did ask for ~copies~ of the sheets, right? So you have your own backup in case someone forgets theirs, or accidentally tears them up?)

I asked for statblocks and accepted summaries via email. I didn't have extra printouts of this guy's characters with me at that game, so handing him the backup printout wasn't an option. Plus, his attitude was clear: "My old character is just _gone_, and I'm playing this new guy now."

* Another warning sign. The best advice I can give is: Immediately start looking for another place to game. The location you are currently at has issues. Best to remove yourself from an uncomfortable situation.

* Question: Did the player storm off, or say, "Sorry guys. I'm not up for this tonight. Go ahead and play - I'm going to cool off" ?

A mix between the two. It wasn't a completely overt tantrum, but he was clearly upset, and his departure left behind a *very* uncomfortable silence.

* Are other players (or NPCs, or monsters) in your current game using non-core material?

* If the answer above is No, then I think you're being emotionally blackmailed.

* If the answer above is Yes, did you approve of that material and let the other players know about it (and add it to your player handout)? If not, he's got a reason to gripe.

* What he does in his game has no bearing on what you do in yours. If he wants to DM, invite him to run his own game.

Yes, others are using non-core material, all approved by me (including statblocks) at least 24 hours in advance of the game. I have a summary of the campaign house-rules that I'm keeping updated, including specific listings of new material approved.

* IMO (and solely in my opinion) this was a mistake. You've now demonstrated that you won't follow your own rules and can be persuaded, blackmailed, played, call-it-what-you-will. A better way to handle it, in my opinion, is to stick to your guns - tell the player that you'll be happy to review his character *tomorrow* so he can play it in the next session. Note: For your group, this sort of thing might work out great - that's your call to make. IME, it creates problems in the long run.

Also IMO. I felt like it was a mistake, like I caved improperly, even though the session ended up going well once we were actually playing. My campaign rules/guidelines, even though I made a poorly-considered exception, didn't prevent anything from going bad...THIS time.

* I think you may be confusing respect with simply following rules. Following a rule has little to do with respect - you follow the rules, or the DM changes the rules (like you did when you caved), or you don't play. This player may very well have a great deal of respect for you and your rules - he just doesn't want to follow them, and you've shown him that he doesn't have to.

* Your concerns about keeping up with new material from books you don't own are valid. Don't ever let anyone tell you otherwise. You can get around this by telling your group that you'll take a look at the optional material if someone will buy you a copy... otherwise, they'll have to wait until you can afford it yourself.

That's one of the chief reasons why I talk about the lack of respect. My boundaries are mine, and I am the one who sets them. Telling me that I'm wrong because you'd do something differently doesn't invalidate my boundaries.

It feels like a bigger issue than merely gaming - it feels like a broader relationship issue (hmm, it feels weird to use that phrasing to talk about a gaming friend).


* That gives your "problem player" a distinct advantage that he has now used to great effect. Remove yourself and your group from the situation. Have someone else host, or preferrably find a neutral ground (college campus student center, for example). Try to pick one that's more centrally located. Rotate who hosts if you have to, so it's not unfair to any one person. All of these are reasonable and valid changes. If your problem player resists them - even if someone else will provide a carpool - then you may have to take more drastic steps, like recruiting a replacement player.

* Problem: You are taking your work too seriously. If this player wanted to insult you, he'd have used much more regrettable language than leaving the gaming table in anger/frustration. Wanting to change characters four sessions in is not spitting on your work. It's inconsiderate of all the effort you've put in as DM, yes. And you should be annoyed, but not outraged or insulted. I only have what you've posted in this thread to go by, so I will only add that you should think very carefully about taking this so personally. How will you take it if the super-cool plot you've got set up for the PC gets crushed because the player spurns the NPC's love or sells the McGuffin at a pawn shop?

Good idea on the change of venue. One of the other players *might* be able to host for future games.

As for taking things too seriously, you have a point. I'm wont to do so in general. Still, his cavalier attitude about "*bamf* My old PC is gone! *bamf* And here's my new PC!" ruins the feel of the game for me. It makes it lose any sense of other-reality that I was trying to develop.

* An EXCELLENT idea! You may even want to talk with each player individually between games, in person, and ask them what they think of the game - what do they like, dislike, want to see more of, want to see less of, etc. This kind of feedback is invaluable to a DM.

I hope this helps. Good luck with your game!

Thanks :)
 
Last edited:

Update: It seems that things have come to a head. I've been trying to talk via email to the problem player to figure out a workable resolution, and he'd rather "just drop it."

Then, when I started asking why he became so insistent about discarding his original character, he wrote the following to the entire group:


[Elephant],

Indeed you are going to drop it. All you need to know is that I was not happy playing him. My enjoyment is as important as your overarching master storyline. I don't have to feel guilty about not playing a generic AC 15 kobold. I gave you and the group advance notice via email that Scar was gone, and that I was bringing in a new kobold character. No....big......deal.

I'm sorry you can't get past this, but you need to. I am NOT going to discuss this further. Discuss on ENWORLD all you like, but I don't answer to you. It's my gaming group as much as yours, and if you continue to push me, one of us will leave the group.

Please drop this for my sake, and the sake of the group. I do not want to discuss this, and do not need to justify my dislike of Scar, or the simple desire to play a new character.

[problem player]
 

Shadowslayer said:
I'm curious about something though (and genuine curious, not snarky curious) where I ever even wrote what my "style" is. I never actually voiced that anywhere.

Ah, I meant the style of letting the players set the guidelines. :)
 

Elephant said:
Update: It seems that things have come to a head. I've been trying to talk via email to the problem player to figure out a workable resolution, and he'd rather "just drop it."

Then, when I started asking why he became so insistent about discarding his original character, he wrote the following to the entire group:


[Elephant],

Indeed you are going to drop it. All you need to know is that I was not happy playing him. My enjoyment is as important as your overarching master storyline. I don't have to feel guilty about not playing a generic AC 15 kobold. I gave you and the group advance notice via email that Scar was gone, and that I was bringing in a new kobold character. No....big......deal.

I'm sorry you can't get past this, but you need to. I am NOT going to discuss this further. Discuss on ENWORLD all you like, but I don't answer to you. It's my gaming group as much as yours, and if you continue to push me, one of us will leave the group.

Please drop this for my sake, and the sake of the group. I do not want to discuss this, and do not need to justify my dislike of Scar, or the simple desire to play a new character.

[problem player]

Wow. :eek:

Err... doesn't sound to me like he wants to play by anyone else's rules. >cough<

Is there any other tension between the two of you? To make such a threat over what is really a pretty trivial issue (he's threatening to force a showdown in the group even after he got his way??) is pretty extreme and a total overreaction, from what I can tell.

On the other hand, we don't know his side of the story, so it's hard to judge fairly. I dunno, though- it doesn't look like he's interested in telling it. :uhoh:
 

Don't get mad. Run your game without him sometime, or find a different group who are willing to play by your rules. If you have time to add the extra session, that is.
 

It seems to me that this person is all too willing to push things to breaking point. Of course, you should not capitulate once more, IMHO. You are the DM, so the players play by your rules. If he wants to, he can run his own game.

Now here's how I see it: ask him to leave and never play with him again (and ask if someone else can host the game from now on), or, if the others object, simply tell them that you are not willing to dedicate your precious time to DM a group of players who do not respect your rules, and leave.

When he says that one of you will leave the group, he means that he thinks he can sway the others (using the fact that you play in his house as an advantage) into believing that this is all your fault, WHICH IS NOT, at least from what we know. I take it he is a frequent visitor here, so it would be most convenient to us all if he could post and explain how things went (it's important to hear both sides of the story).

Don't get me wrong, as I said, one needs to hear both parts, but since he demonstrated such blatant disregard for the person who does the most work (you), I would be reluctant to let him be a part of my group in the future. If you do, he and the others will be convinced that bullying DOES work.

Should you decide to "just drop it" and continue to play with this person (which is not advisable), have him create a new character which will not break any of your rules. If he fails to do so, he does not participate in that night's session (which, hopefully, will be held in someone else's house).
 

But I did read that the group games at the problem player's house, so ditching him creates a whole other nest of issues. The other thing missing here is age - I didn't see Elephant say how old everyone is, or how long everyone had been playing, both of which could be important to understanding the why's behind this whole situation.

My thoughts/feelings on your rules - Good for you. D&D is a cooperative system where everyone has fun, but part of D&D is that it is a game, and that games must have rules. D&D is different from most games in that you have the freedom to choose how much or how little of the rules you want to use, and from what you've said you did it right: you told everyone up front how much you were comfortable with using, and laid out what you expected of your players to make your life easier. I've read over some of the other responses and have seen people questioning your call to set limits and call it your game, but it was YOUR game - you're doing the work preparing game (even if it is from a module), and you have a life outside of the game just like everyone else. The limitations you set allow you to enjoy running the game without it feeling like work - if you have to do much more reading and preparing than you're comfortable with or presently capable of doing, then DMing isn't fun: it becomes a job, and I suspect you already have either schoolwork and/or a real-life job... and nobody needs more work than they can handle.

Just because this guy didn't like the limits you set didn't give him the right to simply disregard them - he's supposed to have fun, and I can accept that maybe playing a core-only character might not be fun for him, but it's also supposed to be fun for you. What other characters has this guy played in the past? Does he have a habit of playing the odd-man-out character? Is this his first time playing?


The tone of the letter is pretty ugly, really. It comes across very threatening, and leaves little room for discussion. As a DM with a fair bit of experience and a great, flexible group of people, I feel for you - you drew the short straw with this situation. I don't feel you really did anything wrong in this situation: you told your group what you were comfortable with before starting the game, and they had the option at that point to say they weren't interested or to debate with you and try and change your mind or compromise with you about adding on material as the game progressed and you became comfortable with your role as DM. My personal feeling on the materials you've shown is pretty simple - this is not someone with which I think I would want to continue playing, possibly even after this issue is amicably resolved - it just feels like something else is going on here beyond the problem with the character and your turn at the DM pole.

Did you do something to this guy outside the gaming table, or did you say something in your emails to him that could be construed as threatening to elicit such a response? Like Jester said, this sounds completely over-the-top for such a seemingly trivial problem like a 1st level game gone sour. If he had simply said, "keep pushing the issue and I may leave the group," I wouldn't be asking this, because that would be the response of a rather childish person licking their wounds, but to threaten to throw-down with you in front of the whole group... them's fightin' words.
 
Last edited:

Remove ads

Top