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When the Unspeakable Happens
- Thread starter Rechan
- Start date
On Puget Sound
First Post
I GMed for a group with a ranger who had a penchant for opening doors before a fight was quite over, bringing the next batch of monsters into play before the party had any time to rest. Took him two levels and a lot of time rolling death saves to learn to stop. He never did actually die from this, though. What finally cured him was the party wizard saying "the next time a second group of enemies comes into a fight, I WILL include in my area of effect whichever fool brought them, even if it means leaving a monster out."
UngeheuerLich
Legend
1) with a round beeing 6 seconds of real time, a combat is usually over before the second encounter arrives...
2) when there is an encounter close to a second one, players need to have a chance to know beforehand (scouting, knowing whats ahead) so that they can take countermeasures (like dropping a silence into the room... maybe a ritual or something... i would personally allow ritual to be nearly completed beforehand and enchant a temporary magical item for such things)
2) when there is an encounter close to a second one, players need to have a chance to know beforehand (scouting, knowing whats ahead) so that they can take countermeasures (like dropping a silence into the room... maybe a ritual or something... i would personally allow ritual to be nearly completed beforehand and enchant a temporary magical item for such things)
I very nearly had this happen to me _twice_ in my game last weekend. I set it up to happen: the party had teamed up with a white dragon to attack a goblin lair (two enounters worth of goblins). During the fight, an elite hobgoblin warcaster deathmaster emerged from the lair, took a few potshots with his lightning staff power, then retreated back into the lair as soon as he was threatened.
After the goblins were defeated, the dragon got greedy and turned on the party, to keep the spoils for herself. I split the two parts of the encounter into separate encounters -- after the goblins were dead, and the party started licking their wounds, I told everyone to reset their encounter powers and (if they wanted to) spend one healing surge. Then I had them roll Insight vs Bluff to see who was surprised by the dragon's sudden attack.
That fight started off really poorly outside in the open, so the party retreated into the goblin lair. As far as they knew, it was now completely empty except for the hobgoblin deathmaster (and his zombies). They retreat around a corner into a room that looks fairly defendable, and while the dragon spends a couple rounds squeezing through the tight tunnels to get to them, they notice a secret door. Now, there's precisely one secret door in the entire lair, and there's one Big Bad Guy left. You do the math. But the party says they're going to open the door and hide inside!
I had them roll Insight checks, and told them that it occurred to them that the necromancer was probably behind that door, and it seemed like a pretty bad idea to engage him while still so beaten up by the dragon. Even after that, they were still talking about opening the door! I told them they could hear a haunted growling behind the door (a gravehound). I think that finally convinced them. Ugh.
So depending on how you look at it, that could have potentially been up to 4 encounters worth of monsters in a single fight. And we were a PC short due to a last minute cancelation!
After the goblins were defeated, the dragon got greedy and turned on the party, to keep the spoils for herself. I split the two parts of the encounter into separate encounters -- after the goblins were dead, and the party started licking their wounds, I told everyone to reset their encounter powers and (if they wanted to) spend one healing surge. Then I had them roll Insight vs Bluff to see who was surprised by the dragon's sudden attack.
That fight started off really poorly outside in the open, so the party retreated into the goblin lair. As far as they knew, it was now completely empty except for the hobgoblin deathmaster (and his zombies). They retreat around a corner into a room that looks fairly defendable, and while the dragon spends a couple rounds squeezing through the tight tunnels to get to them, they notice a secret door. Now, there's precisely one secret door in the entire lair, and there's one Big Bad Guy left. You do the math. But the party says they're going to open the door and hide inside!
I had them roll Insight checks, and told them that it occurred to them that the necromancer was probably behind that door, and it seemed like a pretty bad idea to engage him while still so beaten up by the dragon. Even after that, they were still talking about opening the door! I told them they could hear a haunted growling behind the door (a gravehound). I think that finally convinced them. Ugh.
So depending on how you look at it, that could have potentially been up to 4 encounters worth of monsters in a single fight. And we were a PC short due to a last minute cancelation!
I've done this several times (Gosh, actually about 1 time for every level of play, thinking about it). It's fun; and it shakes things up bit. Also, it can simply seem realistic.
My advice (which I'm giving because my group has enjoyed every single time I've done it):
If possible, use a "wave". Don't simply combine two encounters, but, if it looks like two encounters may merge, plan on that from the first encounter, if possible. Have the first group of opponents consist of a vanguard, and a rearguard, who doesn't move to engage simultaneously. Then have some of them (maybe the survivors) move back to the next encounter, or have some of the next encounter move forward into this one. Give the PCs a bit of breathing room, if possible.
By the rules, they don't get XP or Healing Surges, as there was no Short Rest. However, let them know that this will count as two encounters once it is clear that it will. That way, the PCs know that they will get a milestone (and thus an Action Point and another Daily Magic Item usage). This lets them feel a bit more free to unleash cool stuff, and win the battle. If the end of the first encounter would have been a milestone, you could even give them the action point and daily magic item usage right then (though I still limit them to 1 per "total encounter"). Still, this can help recharge someone who was out of action points.
Be fair. Because the monsters are willing to step into another encounter, they should also be willing to "step out" of an encounter. If it makes sense for them to come into the fight, sometimes it should also make sense for them to retreat or flee from a fight. If the only decisions monsters make is to "hose" the party, it's going to feel unfair.
Adjust on the fly. If the party had a really easy encounter (few people are hurt, few dailies got used) then you can be pretty lenient in adding a new encounter without a rest. If the party really got bushwhacked in the first fight, only add a second fight if you absolutely have to.
Make it special. If you are going to add more monsters, don't just throw them into the mix. Have them charge in with battlecries, or mock their weak companions. Have them form a shieldwall, or rush in from a side passage. Since combining encounters should be relatively rare (though, again, it turns out I do it a lot!), it should feel like a special, cool event, and not just "oh, no! more friggin' hobgoblins"!
Msherman's idea was good, in that he came up with both a plausible reason to allow a bit of a rest, but also tied that into a chance for surprise. I really like that, and I'm going to steal it. Also, I've told people that they could start taking a short rest, and asked what the first thing they were going to do during the rest was (like, the fighter sat down next to his foe and examined his weapon). That way, they didn't get the chance to use Surges, but they can get a little bit of prep (like our paranoid ranger whose first action was to watch the door, so there went the surprise round for the second wave).
My advice (which I'm giving because my group has enjoyed every single time I've done it):
If possible, use a "wave". Don't simply combine two encounters, but, if it looks like two encounters may merge, plan on that from the first encounter, if possible. Have the first group of opponents consist of a vanguard, and a rearguard, who doesn't move to engage simultaneously. Then have some of them (maybe the survivors) move back to the next encounter, or have some of the next encounter move forward into this one. Give the PCs a bit of breathing room, if possible.
By the rules, they don't get XP or Healing Surges, as there was no Short Rest. However, let them know that this will count as two encounters once it is clear that it will. That way, the PCs know that they will get a milestone (and thus an Action Point and another Daily Magic Item usage). This lets them feel a bit more free to unleash cool stuff, and win the battle. If the end of the first encounter would have been a milestone, you could even give them the action point and daily magic item usage right then (though I still limit them to 1 per "total encounter"). Still, this can help recharge someone who was out of action points.
Be fair. Because the monsters are willing to step into another encounter, they should also be willing to "step out" of an encounter. If it makes sense for them to come into the fight, sometimes it should also make sense for them to retreat or flee from a fight. If the only decisions monsters make is to "hose" the party, it's going to feel unfair.
Adjust on the fly. If the party had a really easy encounter (few people are hurt, few dailies got used) then you can be pretty lenient in adding a new encounter without a rest. If the party really got bushwhacked in the first fight, only add a second fight if you absolutely have to.
Make it special. If you are going to add more monsters, don't just throw them into the mix. Have them charge in with battlecries, or mock their weak companions. Have them form a shieldwall, or rush in from a side passage. Since combining encounters should be relatively rare (though, again, it turns out I do it a lot!), it should feel like a special, cool event, and not just "oh, no! more friggin' hobgoblins"!
Msherman's idea was good, in that he came up with both a plausible reason to allow a bit of a rest, but also tied that into a chance for surprise. I really like that, and I'm going to steal it. Also, I've told people that they could start taking a short rest, and asked what the first thing they were going to do during the rest was (like, the fighter sat down next to his foe and examined his weapon). That way, they didn't get the chance to use Surges, but they can get a little bit of prep (like our paranoid ranger whose first action was to watch the door, so there went the surprise round for the second wave).
CapnZapp
Legend
Nothing changes.
The PCs should probably flee or they will die. Simple.
If you always cut back encounters so they become winnable, the PCs will learn to never expect overwhelming opposition.
In other words, they will come to expect to win every fight.
Thus, considering this scenario to be "unspeakable" rather than "a constant threat" is is dull and videogamey.
In the end, every DM must trigger a TPK sooner or later. That really is the only way to get the players attention. (Of course, with mature enough players, this never needs to be an issue)
Luckily, D&D is rather well equipped to handle a TPK. At low levels, generating new characters is quick and easy. At higher levels, when creating a character becomes more complex, you can simply have your old PC raised from the dead.
I'm suprised no one has mentioned it but at least when I am DMing and two, or more, encounters get mixed together I always try to let the players know that getting out of there is an option. I mean they may be heroes but stupidly charging into hordes of monsters just because they're there will usually result in dead heroes.
Nytmare
David Jose
This is what I've spent most of my time trying to do. Though, to be fair, they're exceptionally good at fighting themselves to a standstill surrounded on all sides by angry, alert bad guys.
I don't know really know what the problem is either. I used to think that tactically, my players just weren't used to the system yet, but I know that's not it.
Jack99
Adventurer
GO LEFT!
Anyway. About the who issue of triggering two encounters. I (usually) make sure that players know that there willl most likely be another encounter inc very soon, unless they do something about it. Meaning, I give them time to retreat to a more defensive place, and maybe make a few preparations - or enough time to get the hell out of Dodge.
But have some faith. While the fact is that it might become a drawn out battle of at-wills, the fact that they probably are really low on ressources will make for an interesting combat none the less.
Give them some credit and the opportunity to be real heroes - they might surprise you. Then again, they could just as easily die
Rechan said:
He should play the scene plausibly. Have the monsters act in their best interests.
As a player, I like to be challenged. Two encounters instead of one: bring it on!
All of this talk about artificial solutions to a situation which by definition should happen on occasion are just that: artificial.
It's a game. Let the players enjoy it. Let the game be plausible instead of contrived. If my player sticks around and gets killed, even knowing the odds, that was my choice. If my fellow PCs stuck around to help, that was their choice.
Players often want their PCs to be heroes. Let them. Sometimes it works out and becomes a memorable encounter. Other times it becomes a TPK. But, one cannot have the former without the risk of the latter. The fun is in the striving, not in the auto-success.
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