TSR When TSR Passed On Tolkien

Benjamin Riggs recently revealed this tidbit of TSR history -- Lorraine Williams passing on the rights to Tolkien's works in 1992!

"So, in 1992, TSR almost acquired the rights to JRR Tolkien's work. John Rateliff was sent to London to negotiate the deal, missing Gen Con. (Apparently, no TSR employees were allowed to miss Gen Con, but he was for this...) He met Christopher Tolkien at the Harper-Collins offices, where he asked for the rights to make RPGs, merch, and new books set in Middle-Earth. Chris Tolkien said yes to the RPGs, and some merch, but no to the fiction line.

Back in Lake Geneva, Rateliff communicated this to TSR CEO Lorraine Williams. Rateliff said, "Her immortal words were, ‘Not worth our while.’”

She then passed on the whole deal."

Rateliff wrote the book The History of the Hobbit: The Hobbit / Mr. Baggins / Return to Bag-end.

Amazon.com: The History of the Hobbit: The Hobbit / Mr. Baggins / Return to Bag-end: 9780618964406: Rateliff, John D., Tolkien, J. R. R.: Books

Amazon.com: The History of the Hobbit: The Hobbit / Mr. Baggins / Return to Bag-end: 9780618964406: Rateliff, John D., Tolkien, J. R. R.: Books

www.amazon.com

 

[rpgresearch]

We had John D. Rateliff at one of our Tolkien Moot / MerpCon years ago and he explained this in some depth. You can watch the video here: Enjoy!

 

[darjr]

Thank you for posting that!

 

[Hurin70]

Yes, thanks for posting that Rpgresearch!

By the way, do you know when the Tolkienmoot 2020 will be? Are you sticking with October, or going back to July?

 

[Jay Verkuilen]

We had John D. Rateliff at one of our Tolkien Moot / MerpCon years ago and he explained this in some depth.

Really interesting, though he certainly made some predictions that weren't borne out.

It's interesting how much WotC is still obsessed with entry level games still.

I know I've argued that the Tolkien influence has been overplayed more than once, but that's for the folks who claim "D&D is predominantly Tolkien." It's obvious that there's a lot of Tolkien but there's pretty clearly other influences, too, especially in the early days. IMO the very early days of D&D were essentially analogous to fanfic that got way, way bigger than anyone expected.

 

[JLowder]

It's interesting how much WotC is still obsessed with entry level games still.

Well, it is quite important for the continued existence of hobby games, as a hobby and a business, for publishers to offer multiple easy-access gateways to their lines. Intro products such as D&D Essentials or the Call of Cthulhu Starter Set give likely gamers the tools to start playing at a reasonable cost, with reduced time expenditure from the full game. There's a need for those products to be updated and reimagined regularly, since the audience changes and comes at RPGs with new mass media experiences that shape their expectations and the information they require.

TSR seemed obsessed with offering a gateway that would bring in the mass market, which is not quite the same thing. That's hoping you can turn out a version of the game that is accessible to anyone, with little to no effort, like basic Monopoly.

Cheers,
Jim Lowder

 

[Dire Bare]

Well, it is quite important for the continued existence of hobby games, as a hobby and a business, for publishers to offer multiple easy-access gateways to their lines. Intro products such as D&D Essentials or the Call of Cthulhu Starter Set give likely gamers the tools to start playing at a reasonable cost, with reduced time expenditure from the full game. There's a need for those products to be updated and reimagined regularly, since the audience changes and comes at RPGs with new mass media experiences that shape their expectations and the information they require.

TSR seemed obsessed with offering a gateway that would bring in the mass market, which is not quite the same thing. That's hoping you can turn out a version of the game that is accessible to anyone, with little to no effort, like basic Monopoly.

I agree, and I also think that producing the "perfect" (or even a "great") intro set is not an easy task, hence the many repeated attempts at getting it right.

The recent "Stranger Things" and "Rick & Morty" starter sets are clearly attempts to reach new audiences that are primed for D&D . . . . and that's a brilliant move by WotC, I think!

 

[Dire Bare]

I know I've argued that the Tolkien influence has been overplayed more than once, but that's for the folks who claim "D&D is predominantly Tolkien." It's obvious that there's a lot of Tolkien but there's pretty clearly other influences, too, especially in the early days. IMO the very early days of D&D were essentially analogous to fanfic that got way, way bigger than anyone expected.

I shouldn't jump in on this, as it's a perennial argument with lines already drawn in the sand, but . . . . (failed Wis save)

D&D certainly had many influences from fantasy/sci-fi/pulp fiction in addition to Tolkien, as well as from history and myth, when it was first birthed. And continues to evolve as the fantasy and related genres evolve too. D&D in many ways, has become it's own fantasy genre and I would argue has had as much influence back on the fantasy genre at large as Tolkien has himself (maybe even moreso).

But I roll my eyes at fans who downplay Tolkien's influence on D&D. The four classic races (human, elf, dwarf, hobbit, er, halfling), the classes of fighter, ranger, and wizard who would fit in quite well in Middle-Earth. D&D, to a large extent, looks & feels a hell of a lot like Tolkien . . . . even if the wizards are "Vancian", the rogues (sorry, thieves) are "Leiberesque", the paladins are "Andersonian", and the cosmology is (in part) "Moorcockian".

 

[zedturtle]

That was fun. Prophetic in some ways (Francesco and Marco got a stealth mention at the very end for War of the Ring and the idea that the next RPG needed to be built from the ground up for Middle-earth) and off-kilter in some other ways. One thing that is a constant truth is that it is a labor of love for those who get the chance to work on the property.

 

[QuentinGeorge]

I shouldn't jump in on this, as it's a perennial argument with lines already drawn in the sand, but . . . . (failed Wis save)

D&D certainly had many influences from fantasy/sci-fi/pulp fiction in addition to Tolkien, as well as from history and myth, when it was first birthed. And continues to evolve as the fantasy and related genres evolve too. D&D in many ways, has become it's own fantasy genre and I would argue has had as much influence back on the fantasy genre at large as Tolkien has himself (maybe even moreso).

But I roll my eyes at fans who downplay Tolkien's influence on D&D. The four classic races (human, elf, dwarf, hobbit, er, halfling), the classes of fighter, ranger, and wizard who would fit in quite well in Middle-Earth. D&D, to a large extent, looks & feels a hell of a lot like Tolkien . . . . even if the wizards are "Vancian", the rogues (sorry, thieves) are "Leiberesque", the paladins are "Andersonian", and the cosmology is (in part) "Moorcockian".

To be honest, D&D often feels like the characters from the pulp era wandering around in Middle Earth. In other words, the setting most resembles Tolkien, but the "feel", character motivations and themes are what are most different.

 

[Jay Verkuilen]

I shouldn't jump in on this, as it's a perennial argument with lines already drawn in the sand, but . . . . (failed Wis save) <...> But I roll my eyes at fans who downplay Tolkien's influence on D&D.

I don't think we're arguing at all. My issue is with the people who state either extreme (no Tolkien or only Tolkien).

To be honest, D&D often feels like the characters from the pulp era wandering around in Middle Earth. In other words, the setting most resembles Tolkien, but the "feel", character motivations and themes are what are most different.

I think that's a pretty good characterization, although I feel it's closer to The Hobbit than Lord of the Rings. Before Gygax went all Stalinist history on himself in the 1980s is exactly what he said in the 1E DMG when he was indicating his own influences. For instance, The Hobbit seems to imply the existence of rather more greed-oriented characters than LotR. The protagonists are certainly not heroic in the fashion of Frodo but instead much more like pulp heroes.

Trying to make D&D "feel" like LotR Middle Earth is a challenge, in no small part due to all those other influences which are as core to its identity as the Tolkien influences before it grew up and became its own identity that eclipsed its origins. IMO its very early days are like a cover band while by the late '70s it had become more like a band that had was doing its own originals, clearly influenced by what they had played in their formative years but now their own thing.