D&D 5E When you've made the battle too much to handle...

pogre

Legend
I suspect the solution lies in your villain's motivations. Are there ways to move the lich's agenda forward without killing the PCs? Could they help him reach those goals? Perhaps in exchange for being subject to Geas spell and undertaking a mission, the lich let's them live. Are the PCs just in the way - are there other ways to remove them?
 

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overgeeked

B/X Known World
So, no monsters in disguise? Nothing out of the ordinary?
That doesn't follow. You seem to think knowing a monster's AC and HP implies that somehow means the players know exactly what it is. That's not the case. They know something happens when the thing they're swinging at drops 80 hp. They don't know what.
They all know which of the monsters has magic items and which doesn't? etc..?
That also doesn't follow. Knowing this monster has an AC19 doesn't tell you if it has magic items, nor what those magic items are. Monsters don't follow the same rules as the PCs.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
No one is talking about reading stories but you.
Show up to the DM's house or log into Roll20 for a game...then get zero input into the outcome of the story as the DM dictates all...yeah, that's reading me a story. If I, as a player, have no choices to make, I'm not playing an RPG. I'm being read a story. If I, as a player, have only the illusion of choice and the DM has decided exactly how things play out before we've even sat down to "play", I'm not playing an RPG. I'm being read a story. It's not an RPG unless the players can affect the story as it unfolds. And no, I don't mean just being able to decide who I attack in a combat.
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
That doesn't follow. You seem to think knowing a monster's AC and HP implies that somehow means the players know exactly what it is. That's not the case. They know something happens when the thing they're swinging at drops 80 hp. They don't know what.

You see four kobold children in the corner. Three have 1hp each and AC 11, the fourth has 40hp and AC 20, kind of feels like it loses some surprise.

That also doesn't follow. Knowing this monster has an AC19 doesn't tell you if it has magic items, nor what those magic items are. Monsters don't follow the same rules as the PCs.
It kind of feels like the unarmored human appearing thing with AC 19 has something special going on...
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
You see four kobold children in the corner. Three have 1hp each and AC 11, the fourth has 40hp and AC 20, kind of feels like it loses some surprise.
Weird that you assume that's what I'd do. But it's your strawman. Keep swinging all you want.
It kind of feels like the unarmored human appearing thing with AC 19 has something special going on...
Again, monsters and NPCs don't follow the same rules as characters. Don't know what to tell you.
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
Weird that you assume that's what I'd do. But it's your strawman. Keep swinging all you want.
It seemed to follow from your "Tell the players the AC and HP of the monsters up front. Go. They know what's up and they can make an informed choice."

Again, monsters and NPCs don't follow the same rules as characters. Don't know what to tell you.
As long as everyone at the table is having fun.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Show up to the DM's house or log into Roll20 for a game...then get zero input into the outcome of the story as the DM dictates all...yeah, that's reading me a story. If I, as a player, have no choices to make, I'm not playing an RPG. I'm being read a story. If I, as a player, have only the illusion of choice and the DM has decided exactly how things play out before we've even sat down to "play", I'm not playing an RPG. I'm being read a story. It's not an RPG unless the players can affect the story as it unfolds. And no, I don't mean just being able to decide who I attack in a combat.

We are terribly sorry if you've had such bad experiences. If you have, though, those are your experiences. Please do not expect that the discussion of others who haven't had these experiences is aimed at addressing your personal concerns.
 


Setup: PCs are 8th level, a caster-heavy group drained of resources, in a battle with an "atrophied" lich (has some lair and legendary lich abilities, capped as 11th level caster, reduced DCs, no phylactery so it won't stick around if there's a chance it could be destroyed) ...

IF the battle keeps going as-is, it's a TPK. We paused in battle between session, so I have till next weekend to regroup.

It Got Out of Control When... The atrophied lich used its Lair tether ability (CON save or take half the damage the lich takes) and the Shield Guardian ability, combined with legendary actions to repeatedly cast Toll the Dead. I felt it's a fair tactic a genius-level bad guy would use, especially since he's been scrying the PCs for weeks now.

But, it's still too much... The Guardian is now down, but the atrophied lich is still renewing spells each round, doing great on HP, and tethering to the PC wizard. He's been scrying them for weeks now, so I've tailored his strategies to defeat their abilities. The PC fighter is on fumes. The PCs have exhausted their powers trying to keep her afloat.

So, damn, what do you do? I believe now the PCs should have been 9 or 10th level before this battle, my bad on that part. Too late now to correct. It's game on and if I play the Boss intelligently, it knows it's winning and simply has to spam Toll the Dead until everyone is dead. Looking for ways to throw in some (believable) chances for the PCs rather than mercilessly mow them down. Also, on a tangent, may approach the group again about limiting the # of attack cantrips one can cast between short rests. The fighter PC is probably not happy with cantrip spam at the moment...
I underlined what stood out to me.

Single higher level foe, with guard, versus a lower level party. Seems reasonable at first blush. A high level foe should be prepared. But, scrying for weeks? I presume that this is part of the convoluted backstory, but I am a little surprised the party was this unprepared.

The lich doesn't mitigate the damage it takes, but can inflict additional damage when it is harmed? Not sure what you mean by it is "renewing" spells each round. Are there limits to legendary, lair, or similar actions? I forget what is per round or encounter.

- Wizard / Cleric should cast darkness, minor illusion, blindness, or something else to block line of site so that toll the dead is useless. Or, do something that forces the lich to cast spells that the cleric and wizard counter. Leaving a lich at distance is a death sentence. (Do I understand correctly that it is doing 3d8 / 3d12 up to four times a round? That's a cantrip? It seems that a save makes for no damage, but its save DC must be strong. That seems quite strong, but then it is not casting any other spells. But, then, it is casting three cantrips a round plus a spell.)

- Cleric should bombard the lich with sacred flame. This needs line of sight, obviously, so it may conflict with the previous tactic. The cleric should be healing the fighter otherwise.

- Wizard should cast dispel magic or counterspell on the tether ability. (I don't know if that is strictly BTB, but it should be given the strength of this power.) Is this a lasting power or does it need to be renewed?

- Thief should be holding action to stab the lich when they cast. Waste the legendary actions. Also provide flanking advantage to the fighter.

- The fighter needs to be up front and personal with that lich, and the rest of the party needs to keep them alive. Hammer it into the wall like John Henry's last stand. Gain bonus attacks whenever it tries to cast a spell.

- The fighter can tackle the lich, yell "save yourselves", and die a heroic-ish death. Or, wait a minute, can casters cast when grappled? Have the fighter grapple, cleric heal the fighter, and everyone else pound the snot out of it?

As to what the DM can do, and actually answer the OP's question:

- The cleric / paladin / warlock can ask their god / inspiration / patron for a miraculous teleport away.

- With the next successful hit that does >10 hp damage the lich teleports away. "Curse you meddlesome kids!"

- With the next AoE the PCs cast part of the ceiling collapses between the adversaries.

- Secure in its power, the lich allows the PCs to escape when they flee. They obviously aren't a threat, but it is going to find a new lair.
 
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dave2008

Legend
Show up to the DM's house or log into Roll20 for a game...then get zero input into the outcome of the story as the DM dictates all...yeah, that's reading me a story. If I, as a player, have no choices to make,
No one said that though. You are making giant leaps. No one is saying give the players no input or don't allow them to make any choices. Not even close. If there are a million choices in a campaign, and the DM fudges 2 of them, that is not the DM telling a story with 0 input or action by the players. You're trying to jump the grand canyon and we are suggesting you don't step in a puddle.
 

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