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Where 3E and 4E players stand in the great 3E disputes

Delta

First Post
Side note: I really only played core 3.0, with very few supplements added. No 3.5. Nothing from WOTC after Uneathed Arcana.

1. Psionics bad in 3E. Like them in 1E -- I want very unique short mechanics for spice, not a spell-like mechanic taking up a whole book.
2. Tome of Battle is antichrist.
3. Fighter don't suck.
4. CoDzilla could be overpowered, didn't disrupt my personal game. Wizards are as they should be.
5. 3E games *were* pretty close to RAW (one page of house rules/variants used). *Now" houseruled differently (several major UA variants: see below).
6. Group played more casually.
7. No to Eberron.
8. Currently play only 3E (Dan's Diminutive d20: see link below).
 

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That One Guy

First Post
Yay! I dig giving my opinions on things!

1. Psionics: Good or Bad? One time a psionics player broke a 3.0 game. Never tried them later.

2. Tome of Battle: The antichrist or best thing that ever happened? Best thing that ever happened. Stole things from there and gave them to every class in one game. High powered crazy game.

3. Fighter Sux: Yes or No? Pretty much. I've seen a vicious few melee builds, but if the enemy is at range or any number of other exceptions the fighter is... meh.

4. Wizard and CoDzilla overpowered to the point of game disruption: yes or no? House-rules the He[ck] out of magic so... ?

5. Your 3E games: Rules as written or houseruled into oblivion? The second. Extremely so.

6. Does your group optimize, or play more casually? A mix. More casual, but everyone wants to be good at whatever they do.

7. Eberron: Yes or No? I like the idea of it, but every game I've played in the setting has given me a not good feeling. Could be the DMs. Dunno'.

8. Do you currently play more 3E, or 4E? 4E.
 

Turtlejay

First Post
1. Psionics: Good

2. Tome of Battle: Kind of retarded

3. Fighter Sux:No

4. Wizard and CoDzilla overpowered to the point of game disruption: No

5. Your 3E games: Raw, mostly. Character creation, feat progression, and level gaining were houseruled.

6. Does your group optimize, or play more casually: Some of both. Mostly casual.

7. Eberron: Yes, and can't wait for 4e Eberron.

8. Do you currently play more 3E, or 4E: 4e

Jay
 

Caliber

Explorer
For someone who thinks this is an interesting line of query, but who is also quite lazy (read: me) it would be useful to compile statistics on the answer to these. Perhaps it would have been better to do this as a multi-choice poll (ie, each question has its own "section" and you'd choose one answer for each section?)

Just a suggestion! :)
 

Zsig

Explorer
1. Psionics: Good or Bad?
I liked them, my players didn't. Whether they're good or bad, I don't know, I never saw a problem with them when someone played them though. So I'd say neither good nor bad, just cool.

2. Tome of Battle
I think this one came too late, by the time it arrived it didn't do much for my games, my players looked at it and said "meh".

3. Fighter Sux: Yes or No?
4. Wizard and CoDzilla overpowered to the point of game disruption: yes or no?
I think those are related to one another (I'd say mutually "inclusive"). Fighters do not suck, but casters overshine them. If they (wizards and CoDzillas) are overpowered to the point of game disruption, I dunno, but at least 3 gaming campaigns of mine (both as DM and as a player) got disrupted because (not entirely) of them. ie: fighter types lost interest in the game seeing caster types dominating the game, and thus "missing" some sessions and such.

5. Your 3E games: Rules as written or houseruled into oblivion?
RAW, although extremely limited in terms of material available. For example: last time we played, we ruled no more than one splat book per character + PHB I + PHB II (and also a couple feat/races limitations).

6. Does your group optimize, or play more casually?
No, I'm the only one that buys the books, and the only one that reads the books. Players usually come and ask me when they make their characters or when they go up a level what's a good feat / power / spell for their characters.

7. Eberron: Yes or No?
Yes, it's awesome, but it gets a little boring after a few campaigns.

8. Do you currently play more 3E, or 4E?
I'm fully converted to 4E.
 

Ander00

First Post
1. Psionics: Good or Bad?

In theory? Awesome. The XPH mostly delivered. The original Psionics Handbook and particularly the Complete Psionic did not, and other support was scarce. My halfling kineticist was one of my favorite characters, as was the psychic warrior I played much earlier.

2. Tome of Battle: The antichrist or best thing that ever happened?


I really liked it, though it was obviously a bit rushed and they perhaps went a bit too far in that direction in 4E design.

3. Fighter Sux: Yes or No?

Not the first two levels.

4. Wizard and CoDzilla overpowered to the point of game disruption: yes or no?

They can be, yes, but in all those years we never had any character break the game in half. And depending on who you ask, the psychic warrior with the spiked chain was the one closest to doing so.

5. Your 3E games: Rules as written or houseruled into oblivion?


Mostly minor houserules, like average hit points (rounded up) in the last one.

6. Does your group optimize, or play more casually?


Different people optimize to different degrees with different characters, but nobody has ever completely overshadowed the others. I had our worst character ever, and I am or was regarded as the local optimizer.

7. Eberron: Yes or No?

Sure, why not.

8. Do you currently play more 3E, or 4E?(this question is to see where each group falls in terms of the previous questions)


4E exclusively, though I find I kind of miss 3E. I wish I'd be playing both editions right now.


cheers
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
1. Psionics - neither good nor bad. Just thought it was not necessary to wedge it in with other forms of magic. Considered running a only-psi game, but haven't gotten to it.

2. Tome of Battle - never read it. No opinion.

3. Fighters - not really all that bad.

4. Wizard/CoDzilla: never an issue in my games.

5. Mostly Rules as Written

6. Optimize/casual - false dichotomy. Lack of game-optimization does not equate to "casual" play.

7. Never played Eberron.

8. Testing to see if we want to play 4e long-term.
 

Greg K

Legend
So here is the questionaire:

1. Psionics: Good or Bad
The inclusion of mental powers is fine. However, I didn't like the implementation in the 3e psionic handbooks. Give me a system like the one in Green Ronin's Psychic's Handbook (or the original d20 Star Wars Force mechanics).

2. Tome of Battle: The antichrist or best thing that ever happened?
"The Antchrist" is too strong. I liked the goal, but not the mechanics and schools. Give me the Book of Iron Might (Malhavoc) in which the DM and and players can describe cool maneuvers on the fly. Plus, I didn't like that TOB didn't give a system for building new maneuvers which again BOIM does.

3. Fighter Sux: Yes or No?
Past levels ten to twelve, they do get overshadowed. As for complaints about the lack of things to do outside of combat and lack of skill points? Well there is customizing a character in the PHB (p.94/3.0 and 3.5p.110).

4. Wizard and CoDzilla overpowered to the point of game disruption: yes or no?
Yes, beginning at higher levels (12 or 13). However, I have never liked DND past a certain level anyway so I do my best not to play the game once it reaches the point where spellcasters dominate. However, I do see where it can be a problem.

5. Your 3E games: Rules as written or houseruled into oblivion?
Heavily houseruled.
First, I use Unearthed Arcana and several third party products while severly limiting the majority of WOTC supplement. The only WOTC books (other than Unearthed Arcana) that really see use beyond UA, are books like MM2, Fiend Folio, Fiendish Codex I, Book of Vile Darkness, Lords of Madness, Heroes of Horro, and Stormwrack. Otherwise, the content from WOTC books is primarily limited to a combined handful of class variants, spells, feats and equipment

Even the core rules are not sacred. For example, there are alterations to core classes (some drawing from UA and third party sources), a single saving throw progression, slow leveling (from the DMG), divine casters having spell lists tailored to deities specific to the campaign, the removal or alteration of some spells and the removal of some of the PHB equipment.

6. Does your group optimize, or play more casually?
Casually (with some optimizing at the beginning to reflect background/training) . I tend to discourage heaviy optimizing and do encourage organic growth. However, I do try to find or create UA style class variants as well as use some 3 party classes to help those players, who would use multiclassing to meet an archetype.

a) characters can't acquire new good save bonuses or new weapon or armor proficiencies via multiclassing. Those are benefits granted to first level characters (unless you want your character to spend a significant time not adventuring). If you want to learn new weapons and/or armor, and improve saves after character generation, use feats.

b) Not all races/cultures have access to every available class or class variant.

c) If player's are building their characters organically, I'll take into account their skills when determing challenges for the characters
As such, they should build their initial character to the character that they envision (within what is reasonable for a first level character and given the resources available) rather than trying to game the system and trying to assume what I will not throw something at them. If they ignore skills just to keep two or three skills maxed out, they better have a background reason for doing so instead of gaming the system, because I will treat the lack of skills as conciously assigning deliberate weaknesses on the part of the player.

Furthermore, as the game progresses, the characters need to have had the opportunity to use existing skills to improve them and, to learn new skills, they need a trainer (or, for some skills, spent time in the right circumstances). So, if the party has been spending a lot of time in the wilderness, it might be a good to spend some time with the ranger or druid and pick up a rank in survival or nature lore.


d) As for multiclassing and Prcs, characters need a trainer to learn a new class and prestige class. Even some feats are cultural specific. This requires finding a trainer (which may be a PC if of the appropriate class), convincing them to train you, and being able to spend time with them to train. And, since I assign the prestige classes in my campaign based on the existing cultures and organization, the character needs to have knowledge that it exists (either by being raised in correct culture/locatio or estabishing ties with them during the campaign) in addition to the other requirements (i.e, finding a trainer, training time, etc.). Plus, if it's a secret organization, they may have to learn about it/find it even if he or she is from the culture or have spent time there.

Preplanning your character's career progression for the campaign ahead of time is, therefore, often better left as an excercise. As the players determine where the campaign goes by their characters' in game actions, your character may be off in some remote corner of the setting far away from the place your character needs to be at your prescribed time.

That all said, there are some PrCs which I don't require characters seeking out a trainer as they replace the standard class progression to reflect the standard training that a character would have had. Again, though, this is by culture or organization.

7. Eberron: Yes or No?
No. It has some elements that I like. However, over all it is not my cup of tea.
(edit: Actually, I would not run it. I might be willing to play, if we avoid the dinosaurs and the rail).

8. Do you currently play more 3E, or 4E?(this question is to see where each group falls in terms of the previous questions)

Currently, I am not playing or running either. I am running Mutants and Masterminds and playing Rolemaster. However, I am working on a new campaign which will be 3e.

As for 4e, I will not play or run it at this time. There are a few things I do like over 3e, but overal it would require WOTC to put out an Unearthed Arcana type book and third party support addressing my issues with 4e. However, 3e was the same way- I just had less issues with the core 3e rules.
 
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Benimoto

First Post
1. Psionics: Good or Bad? Indifferent. Bad, I suppose since they were used very infrequently.

2. Tome of Battle: The antichrist or best thing that ever happened? The best. If it's not the actual best, it's in the top 3.

3. Fighter Sux: Yes or No? If boring=sux then yes.

4. Wizard and CoDzilla overpowered to the point of game disruption: yes or no? As RAW, yes. There was an ever-expanding list of banned spells and other compromises necessary to keep the disruption down.

5. Your 3E games: Rules as written or houseruled into oblivion? Mostly RAW, but some basic houserules, such as the banned list.

6. Does your group optimize, or play more casually? A mix, but mostly optimizers.

7. Eberron: Yes or No? Yes. It was my most-used setting.

8. Do you currently play more 3E, or 4E?(this question is to see where each group falls in terms of the previous questions) More 4E.
 

blargney the second

blargney the minute's son
1. Psionics: awesome

2. Tome of Battle: awesome

3. Fighter Sux: useful, enjoyable class

4. Wizard and CoDzilla overpowered: not overpowered (we don't allow divine metamagic)

5. Your 3E games: 95+% rules as written

6. Does your group optimize, or play more casually? all over the place, depends on player

7. Eberron: hell yeah!

8. Do you currently play more 3E, or 4E? both equally
-blarg
 

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