Where do you see the evolution of the D&D game heading?
- Thread starter Dragonblade
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Nyeshet
First Post
The problem with this idea is that there is less money to be made from digital games than 'collect them all' minis. At least unless the digital game is a MMOG and is well enough made to maintain a substantial population of players, and the current WotC simply lacks the setup for such. I would believe this to be far more likely if WotC were bought out by Blizzard or some similar company with (successful) experience in MMOGs, but I don't think Hasbro will let go of WotC that easily.bolen said:
Celebrim
Legend
The problem with going digital is that digital content is enherently more labor intensive than using your imagination. The pencil, paper, dice, and your imagination manage to create what is a pretty high tech system which has features that just never will be obseleted.
So I don't see D&D moving to an all digital format. Besides, while I've had some really intense on-line RP sessions and there are certain sorts of mature content (violence, sex) that seem to 'prefer' the less confrontational, less awkward, less emotionally intense digital interaction, there is something to be said for face to face contact and real human social interaction. Tables will remain a part of gaming pretty much forwever.
That isn't to say that mature MMORPG's won't become a great RP outlet. I suspect that they will undergo the same evolution we say in text based adventures before they were killed by visual games, the same evolution toward maturity we saw in 2D CRPG/adventure gaming, the same evolution in 3D CRPG/adventure gaming and so forth. While the current generation of 3D MMORPG's are generally providing no more of a RP experience than Nethack, I don't assume that that will always be the case. We will likely see the same sort of progression in the technology we saw between say Nethack, an early 90's MUD, and a mid-90's MUSH or MUX.
One other reason that MMORPG's won't ever kill the table top game is that one of the lessons MMORPG's are teaching us is that you can't have the same story experience for a massive player game that you have come to expect from a table game. In a table game, the PC's are always the center of the game universe. In a MMORPG as they are played today, no one is actually the center of the game universe.
Similarly, while I'm certain WotC will continue pushing high dollar multiple purchase high profit margin products like minatures and such - because they are a company, people will buy them, and it works so well in thier other product lines - the shear economic investment involved will prevent a large percentage of gamers from ever playing in that way. One of the great things about pencil, paper, dice, and imagination is that they are all inexpensive. If WotC ever tried to force that as a required part of the experience of play, a plurality of thier player base would just ignore them.
I'm similarly skeptical of any predictions for large amounts of change in the mechanics of 4th edition. I anticipate some changes in spells, some rollbacks of ill considered changes in 3.5 to 3.0 rules (meaning most of them), and some other things that weren't addressed updated.
What I don't anticipate is a lighter, simplier, more unified system. The reason for this is that there is significant economic pressure not to go that way. A lighter rules set means selling less books. No rules light game system has ever been a major commercial success in the history of RPG's. They've always been fringe games that attract a few fans, last a while, and then disappear. Moderately complex game systems always evolve under economic (and lets face it, fan) pressure into complex games with lots of options, optional rules, and heavy detail in areas formerly glossed over.
As for Mearls, and a 'per encounter' basis, I can see a bit of that creeping into the game where appropriate, but I can't imagine it completely elimenating the notion of 'per day' balance. For one thing, the notion of an encounter is in practice very vague and even confining once you get away from sterotypical dungeon crawling (and don't get me wrong, I'm not insulting dungeon crawling).
So I don't see D&D moving to an all digital format. Besides, while I've had some really intense on-line RP sessions and there are certain sorts of mature content (violence, sex) that seem to 'prefer' the less confrontational, less awkward, less emotionally intense digital interaction, there is something to be said for face to face contact and real human social interaction. Tables will remain a part of gaming pretty much forwever.
That isn't to say that mature MMORPG's won't become a great RP outlet. I suspect that they will undergo the same evolution we say in text based adventures before they were killed by visual games, the same evolution toward maturity we saw in 2D CRPG/adventure gaming, the same evolution in 3D CRPG/adventure gaming and so forth. While the current generation of 3D MMORPG's are generally providing no more of a RP experience than Nethack, I don't assume that that will always be the case. We will likely see the same sort of progression in the technology we saw between say Nethack, an early 90's MUD, and a mid-90's MUSH or MUX.
One other reason that MMORPG's won't ever kill the table top game is that one of the lessons MMORPG's are teaching us is that you can't have the same story experience for a massive player game that you have come to expect from a table game. In a table game, the PC's are always the center of the game universe. In a MMORPG as they are played today, no one is actually the center of the game universe.
Similarly, while I'm certain WotC will continue pushing high dollar multiple purchase high profit margin products like minatures and such - because they are a company, people will buy them, and it works so well in thier other product lines - the shear economic investment involved will prevent a large percentage of gamers from ever playing in that way. One of the great things about pencil, paper, dice, and imagination is that they are all inexpensive. If WotC ever tried to force that as a required part of the experience of play, a plurality of thier player base would just ignore them.
I'm similarly skeptical of any predictions for large amounts of change in the mechanics of 4th edition. I anticipate some changes in spells, some rollbacks of ill considered changes in 3.5 to 3.0 rules (meaning most of them), and some other things that weren't addressed updated.
What I don't anticipate is a lighter, simplier, more unified system. The reason for this is that there is significant economic pressure not to go that way. A lighter rules set means selling less books. No rules light game system has ever been a major commercial success in the history of RPG's. They've always been fringe games that attract a few fans, last a while, and then disappear. Moderately complex game systems always evolve under economic (and lets face it, fan) pressure into complex games with lots of options, optional rules, and heavy detail in areas formerly glossed over.
As for Mearls, and a 'per encounter' basis, I can see a bit of that creeping into the game where appropriate, but I can't imagine it completely elimenating the notion of 'per day' balance. For one thing, the notion of an encounter is in practice very vague and even confining once you get away from sterotypical dungeon crawling (and don't get me wrong, I'm not insulting dungeon crawling).
Man in the Funny Hat
Hero
Actually, it IS that hard. D&D, despite the wonderful simplifications and uniformity of rules provided by 3rd Edtion, has complicated, intricately interconnected rules and gets VASTLY moreso with successive higher levels. A quick glance at the FAQ, errata, Sage Advice, and THESE BOARDS will tell you that. EVERY question posed on message boards about the rules must logically be given a definitive, digitally programmed answer. Every computer game that has ostensibly used 3rd Edition rules has used a version that is more or less further simplified. Many spells and effects simply CANNOT be properly represented in a digital environment because their outcomes influence ROLEPLAYING, not numerical variables and totals.bolen said:
The STAGGERING array of EVERYTHING that is possible in a genuine roleplaying game CANNOT be coded. That is why DM's exist. They continually re-invent the world with each action and verbal interaction with NPC's and monsters to fit, rather than having players simply follow pre-written sequences of options.
If it's so easy why is it that there are so few software character creators and the ones that exist spend all their time squashing rules bugs and exceptions? And a character creator is FAR from a full-on simulation of the overall game.
-*-*-*-
I'm not good at prognosticating, and it seems to me I actually tried to swear off it not long ago but I'll take one more shot at it. I see two possible, general directions for D&D and they are not mutually exclusive - that is we may see a combination, though unlikely.
The first is actually further simplification. Perhaps a new version of rules that all but eliminate the constant interpretational bickering, possibly by placing a great many decisions regarding the outcome back in the hands of the DM. This would be a move towards a roleplaying-heavy approach to the game, and thus a move back to certain aspects of the roots of the game.
The second is actually a more rules-uber-alles approach, though also with a certain degree of simplification. In this case it would be simplifications that sqeeze roleplaying OUT, AWAY from the game. This would be the much more intensely tactical game utilizing more miniatures, terrain, and so forth and it is this version that is more likely to be digital or at least have computer components to playing it, because obviously the game then becomes easier to represent digitally.
I think the second is more the trend we currently see - and HAVE seen since 3E was introduced, but there is undoubtedly a consistent (if probably minority) call for the former so it can't be totally discounted.
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ah. you misunderstand what I meant (or rather I gave a poor answer)
I do not want a computer DM. what I want is a good character generator and a good way to do the "spreadsheet" part of D&D. I certainly understand that a wish spell can not be done in any computer game or allow for any version of role playing not Roll Playing. But a computer can let a 19th level wizard pick his spells and check for all pre-recs for a prestege class.
There should also be a good way to play online with a DM. This would not replace a tabletop game but would be a good substitute for those of us who dont know folks to play with. Play by post does not seem to be alot of fun to me because it lacks the social interaction.
I dont have any experience with over 10th level games so I could be wrong but I would love to come home and log into a central hub and find a good online game. (maybe there are such programs already and I dont know about them)
I do not want a computer DM. what I want is a good character generator and a good way to do the "spreadsheet" part of D&D. I certainly understand that a wish spell can not be done in any computer game or allow for any version of role playing not Roll Playing. But a computer can let a 19th level wizard pick his spells and check for all pre-recs for a prestege class.
There should also be a good way to play online with a DM. This would not replace a tabletop game but would be a good substitute for those of us who dont know folks to play with. Play by post does not seem to be alot of fun to me because it lacks the social interaction.
I dont have any experience with over 10th level games so I could be wrong but I would love to come home and log into a central hub and find a good online game. (maybe there are such programs already and I dont know about them)
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Corinth
First Post
I see D&D accepting its place as the tabletop parallel to World of Warcraft, competing with it directly, and working to recreate in its milieu many of the social elements that are present in WOW. I would not be surprised to see another major push for RPGA expansion and greater emphasis on organized play, with the increase in competitiveness coming from revived player-run groups--guilds--organizing large-scale and small-scale runs on the big modules of the day (raids and 5-mans).
megamania
Hero
More computer aids. I would love to see a program that lists all creatures, classes, prestige classes and templates. But clicking / selecting- it automatically does the number crunching for you.
We could use that even now.
A new game world (as Eberron did) that is about everything 4.0. It will be planar in nature so it allows for anything to done / mixed. Think planar sliders.
Figures will remain. Books will remain.
In time they may reprint old / out of date DDM figures as encounter packs. They will wait until current value of individual figures are gone.
We could use that even now.
A new game world (as Eberron did) that is about everything 4.0. It will be planar in nature so it allows for anything to done / mixed. Think planar sliders.
Figures will remain. Books will remain.
In time they may reprint old / out of date DDM figures as encounter packs. They will wait until current value of individual figures are gone.
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I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
Some things I think we'll be seeing:
Streamlined Rules: Everyone knows D&D is too complicated at certain points. The rules will more and more focus on what gets used at the table, and what people want to accomplish in the four hours that they're actually playing. This will cause thousands of angry people who claim the "imagination has been stripped from the game!" in favor of "pure combat grinding machines!"
Online Tabletops: Want to play a game of D&D? Log on, create a dungeon, players will join the dungeon, and you will run them through it. All through the Magic of the Interwebs. The Wizards community blossoms as people search far and wide for e-gaming groups, and people even bring their friends online for them, fostering a sense of online community. It's not quite an MMO, but it'll give people on different sides of the world the ability to sync up for a game, and also allow people to find new games and new players online. They'll take a hint from Web 2.0, and allow for an easily-customizable interface that will support house rules and new supplemental material and the like.
Expanding the Sweet Spot: Not everyone likes the changes that D&D goes through in 20 levels. When the game is re-considered to allow epic advancement from the ground up, it will be re-considered on another scale: a 1-50 or 1-100 scale. You'll see many, many more abilities, but most of which won't be significantly powerful. You might end up with a feat at every level, but getting those high-level feats will be something you need to work for. D&D will also keep supporting play beginning or ending at all these levels, and XP rates that are either slow or fast...a slow rate revels in the lower levels and keeps adding expanding abilities at an equal power. A fast rate cuts out those superfluous abilities in favor of powering up a small core set of abilities. You can go from commoner to legend in a night, or in 10 years, and D&D will be able to keep dangling carrots in front of you regardless of which approach you use.
I think, at least the last of these requires 4e. But I think this is where the evolution is headed.
Streamlined Rules: Everyone knows D&D is too complicated at certain points. The rules will more and more focus on what gets used at the table, and what people want to accomplish in the four hours that they're actually playing. This will cause thousands of angry people who claim the "imagination has been stripped from the game!" in favor of "pure combat grinding machines!"
Online Tabletops: Want to play a game of D&D? Log on, create a dungeon, players will join the dungeon, and you will run them through it. All through the Magic of the Interwebs. The Wizards community blossoms as people search far and wide for e-gaming groups, and people even bring their friends online for them, fostering a sense of online community. It's not quite an MMO, but it'll give people on different sides of the world the ability to sync up for a game, and also allow people to find new games and new players online. They'll take a hint from Web 2.0, and allow for an easily-customizable interface that will support house rules and new supplemental material and the like.
Expanding the Sweet Spot: Not everyone likes the changes that D&D goes through in 20 levels. When the game is re-considered to allow epic advancement from the ground up, it will be re-considered on another scale: a 1-50 or 1-100 scale. You'll see many, many more abilities, but most of which won't be significantly powerful. You might end up with a feat at every level, but getting those high-level feats will be something you need to work for. D&D will also keep supporting play beginning or ending at all these levels, and XP rates that are either slow or fast...a slow rate revels in the lower levels and keeps adding expanding abilities at an equal power. A fast rate cuts out those superfluous abilities in favor of powering up a small core set of abilities. You can go from commoner to legend in a night, or in 10 years, and D&D will be able to keep dangling carrots in front of you regardless of which approach you use.
I think, at least the last of these requires 4e. But I think this is where the evolution is headed.
jmucchiello
Hero
Why would 3 people be sitting around on line waiting for you (or someone like you) to pop into a game? I've never played in a game where someone could just pop in unannounced.bolen said:
As for playing online, people do it all the time: Go to gamers seeking gamers right here on EnWorld and join a game.
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