D&D 5E Where does optimizing end and min-maxing begin? And is min-maxing a bad thing?

If I had a group of jugheads, and the adventure I picked ahead of time* featured a lot of Investigation and lore skill challenges, and a chase that was primarily going to challenge their agility and coordination, of course I'd tinker those challenges to not be a complete fish out of water goose chase? I don't understand why you wouldn't? What fun is there in running one type of adventure with a group designed for a completely different type of story?

Yeah, I'm totally with you on that, both as a player and as a DM. I'm very much in the "tailor the adventure to your party" camp for DMing. But I can also totally understand wanting to model a real-seeming world that presents a broad range of options to challenge players to build a well-balanced party (if not individual characters).
 

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There is an interesting counterpoint; there seems to be a vociferous feeling that the DM should never, ever have encounters that challenge (or "target") a player because they have low scores, but, on the other hand, many of the same people would also say that the DM should tailor the encounters to increase the fun of the players with the high scores.

It seems like there is a fine line between tailor and target when it comes to DM intervention. But yes, I agree with you and @Saelorn - the chips should fall where they may.

I wouldn't say "never, ever" - but it shouldn't be the norm. Generally, let the chips fall where they may but from time to time throw the players a curve ball. Especially if they have made enemies in-game that know about them and their abilities.

Continually and intentionally targeting the characters in their weakest areas of ability, session after session, gets old and very unfun.
Just as always giving the characters challenges that they are perfectly suited for and can easily overcome becomes boring after a time.

DM'ing is always a balancing act, with the Adversarial DM and the Monty Haul DM at different extremes.
 

Folks, keep it civil, please. Claiming someone trying to clarify is lying needs to stop, as does comparing posts to abuse textbooks and similar psycho-analyzing, as well as incivility in general.
 


They're bad monkeys, they need to be punished. ;P

Seriously, though, apart from the game not really punishing them at all because DEX is so...

...

OK, really, seriously this time:

Nothing. This is 5e. You're Empowered. If you want to tailor challenges to the abilities of the party, that's fine. It means your games will generally be, well, challenging.

It might just be the subtle distinction between 'provide' and 'allow.'

If you confront a party with a highest STR of 11 amongst them with a dungeon sealed by a large boulder, they're not going to move the boulder by main strength.

You're not obliged to have readily available alternate means. But, if the players come up with some ideas - finding things to use as a lever & fulcrum, going back to town for a couple of draft horses, etc, etc - you can let them work, rather than block them.

Sure. In any edition of DnD I have no obligation to block the players from being creative (it's not a Strength of 5e, imo, just a Strength of the format), but what I'm asking is what would be wrong with either;

avoiding impassible challenges in the first place,

or,

providing the means of getting around them?

In your example, providing a puzzle for the characters to solve that will allow them to move the boulder using a mechanism hidden in the dungeon, or giving them access to the tools necessary to use leverage to get the job done, etc.

obviously im not talking about handwaiving, or deus ex machina "solutions", just alternate routes to the same goal, as a counter to just...letting it be impossible to accomplish the goal?
 

At the danger of shading into Devil's Advocacy...

what I'm asking is what would be wrong with either;

avoiding impassible challenges in the first place,

or,

providing the means of getting around them?
In a sense it ignores players' choices. If you make a character who's good at some things and bad at others, and only the former seem to come up, something's missing. (The reverse is also true, and, of course, that much more frustrating.)

In your example, providing a puzzle for the characters to solve that will allow them to move the boulder using a mechanism hidden in the dungeon, or giving them access to the tools necessary to use leverage to get the job done, etc.
I believe I suggested the latter, yes. Or being open to the possibility, if you hadn't thought of it before, that there's a chimney or other alternate entrance that might not have been secured.

obviously im not talking about handwaiving, or deus ex machina "solutions", just alternate routes to the same goal, as a counter to just...letting it be impossible to accomplish the goal?
Getting into stylistic considerations, if there's a point where you do just want a hard stop, you can put in something the party lacks the resources to get past and, conversely, if you don't want an obstacle to be a single point of failure that derails everything, you have to /make sure/ it will be gotten past (or bypassed or something), somehow, even if with negative consequences.
 

Yeah, I'm totally with you on that, both as a player and as a DM. I'm very much in the "tailor the adventure to your party" camp for DMing. But I can also totally understand wanting to model a real-seeming world that presents a broad range of options to challenge players to build a well-balanced party (if not individual characters).

I agree!

It's weird to me that people act like there is nothing in between two wild extremes. Like, it's either "let the chips fall where they may", or coddle and/or punish the players by tailoring every challenge to them.

See, in between those, is a whole continent of good DMing/adventure design.

I'll use [MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION]'s example again, of a boulder blocking a path. One way to deal with that in a group with no str scores higher than 10 or 12, and most at either 10 or 8, would be to simply let them "suck" in that challenge, too bad for them, should have raised that str a bit.

The second way, is to find a handwave solution for it.

Third, you could include in the adventure the tools with which the party can get around the obstacle without high strength scores, and what was designed to be a strength (athletics) challenge becomes a different kind of challenge. Still a challenge, just a different kind.

The third one is my preference. I don't buy for a second that it is somehow less fair than the first option, or that it reduces player agency, as [MENTION=6775031]Saelorn[/MENTION] suggests.

The only adventure that is worth the time and energy of playing through is the adventure that happens naturally, based on the premise that represents the internal forces of the world.

Seriously? That doesn't seem like an exaggeration, at the very least?

In both cases, the decision by the DM essentially makes any decision by the players meaningless, because the outcome is already determined ahead of time. And even if the DM decides to take a balanced approach and throw things that they think will present a reasonable challenge for you to overcome, your success or failure still hinges entirely on what they think is reasonable for you; if you fail, it's because they mis-judged you, rather than because of any choice you made.


It's hard to know where to start here, except to simply say, "nope". If the outcome of challenges is determined ahead of time simply because the DM chose to make it a puzzle solving challenge, or a challenge of coordinated teamwork, rather than one of muscle power...it was poorly designed. Nothing to do with the kind of challenge chosen, it just wasn't made well.

And if a goal has only one path to reach it, there isn't really any player agency, is there?

By allowing creative solutions, and making sure the game supports multiple approaches to the challenges faced, player agency is strengthened, not undermined.

And that is all it takes to not create a situation where an obstacle turns into an impassible roadblock simply because you made the adventure without a specific set of PCs in mind.

No one. No one. is suggesting that DMs should avoid social encounters because no one has high Charisma.

But there certainly isn't anything wrong with making sure that your social encounters allow for Insight, lore skills, etc to overcome the challenge, if you've a group with no "face" character.

Because, I don't like running a game that makes players have to look to metagame information/ideas while making their characters, like "hey, DnD with this DM tends to involve athletics challenges that can't be gotten around without a decent athletics score. We better make sure most of us are decent at athletics, regardless of concept! "
 

Third, you could include in the adventure the tools with which the party can get around the obstacle without high strength scores, and what was designed to be a strength (athletics) challenge becomes a different kind of challenge. Still a challenge, just a different kind.
The point of contention is that you're still presenting this as a challenge for the players and their characters, rather than it simply being the way that the world is. That is a highly contentious premise. It's not the job of the DM to present obstacles to the players. The job of the DM is to narrate the environment, to play the NPCs, and to adjudicate uncertainty in action resolution.

Whether anyone considers something to be an obstacle is irrelevant. It's just a matter of perspective, which should not factor into how the DM adjudicates the resolution of any particular action.
No one. No one. is suggesting that DMs should avoid social encounters because no one has high Charisma.

But there certainly isn't anything wrong with making sure that your social encounters allow for Insight, lore skills, etc to overcome the challenge, if you've a group with no "face" character.
It's not the place of the DM to decide that an encounter, whether social or otherwise, should or should not happen. Seeking or avoiding social encounters is a decision to be made by the players and their characters. It's not the place of the DM to decide that something is or is not a challenge; that's a matter of perception, whether or not any given player sees it that way, and again it is irrelevant. The only thing the DM needs to worry about is describing the environment, how to play their NPCs, and how to adjudicate the resolution of uncertain actions.
 

At the danger of shading into Devil's Advocacy...
Dangerous territory, indeed. lol

In a sense it ignores players' choices. If you make a character who's good at some things and bad at others, and only the former seem to come up, something's missing. (The reverse is also true, and, of course, that much more frustrating.)
If you provide no challenge, because they never have to get creative because the strength challenge just never even comes up, sure. As long as the adventure provides alternate methods, then their choices are being given consequences, without those consequences hampering enjoyment of the game by way of throwing The Gladiator at the cast of Leverage, and providing no avenue for them to Leverage their way through the challenge.
That sort of scenario is only interesting or fun, or IMO, worthwhile, if they present a challenge for the player characters to get creative with their abilities and skills to find a non obvious way to turn a roadblock into a scalable obstacle.

I believe I suggested the latter, yes. Or being open to the possibility, if you hadn't thought of it before, that there's a chimney or other alternate entrance that might not have been secured.
Sure. Or, the tools to move the boulder using leverage, or melt it, or use a hidden mechanism, or repurpose a mechanism the adventure just tried to kill them with, or any number of other options that are vastly more interesting, and do vastly more to encourage roleplaying and enhance player agency, than simply telling them they cannot find out what is in that area of the dungeon because they all have low strength.

Getting into stylistic considerations, if there's a point where you do just want a hard stop, you can put in something the party lacks the resources to get past and, conversely, if you don't want an obstacle to be a single point of failure that derails everything, you have to /make sure/ it will be gotten past (or bypassed or something), somehow, even if with negative consequences.

Agreed.
 

The point of contention is that you're still presenting this as a challenge for the players and their characters, rather than it simply being the way that the world is. That is a highly contentious premise. It's not the job of the DM to present obstacles to the players. The job of the DM is to narrate the environment, to play the NPCs, and to adjudicate uncertainty in action resolution.

Whether anyone considers something to be an obstacle is irrelevant. It's just a matter of perspective, which should not factor into how the DM adjudicates the resolution of any particular action.
It's not the place of the DM to decide that an encounter, whether social or otherwise, should or should not happen. Seeking or avoiding social encounters is a decision to be made by the players and their characters. It's not the place of the DM to decide that something is or is not a challenge; that's a matter of perception, whether or not any given player sees it that way, and again it is irrelevant. The only thing the DM needs to worry about is describing the environment, how to play their NPCs, and how to adjudicate the resolution of uncertain actions.

You have fun with that. Hopefully your players either enjoy that sort of thing, or have access to other people to play with.

It's weird how you keep presenting it as if it's the objectively correct way to play DnD, when it very clearly is nothing more than a way to play, but at this point I'm getting used to that around here.
 

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