Where have all the heroes gone?

[Mkhaiwati]

I hate the "screw other party member's" kind of player. I played with one back in high school, and every campaign he existed just to mess with other players and the gms allowed him to because it was funny to them. I quit after I missed a session and he had my character framed for murder (I woke up in jail with no memory and no possessions). I left gaming for about ten years after that campaign.

Sadly, most groups I have been in are very mercenary. Oh sure, it may say NG or CG on the sheet because the GM outlaws evil characters, but everything came down to money. And I have nothing against that, but it should depend on the character. But that is an ingrained trait that every single one has in the other groups I have been with. with every character.

Last time, I was playing a follower of Isis who wanted to help new families (marraiges) and farmers (with plows and plow horses) who donated money and bought items for new people starting off. It was important to him. He also had a surrogate father relationship with an orphaned girl the group had saved from a annis, and he would occasionally purchase odd gifts for her on his travels (toys, a new dress, maybe some sort of children's book). I realized I was playing a different game than the others when the GM says "Why do you want to do that? Okay, go ahead and waste your money that way..." and the others bought the biggest, baddest stuff they could.

I always think of an anti-hero as Oscar Schindler, who womanized, boozed, failed at everything (including marraige) but when the chips were on the line, came through big time. In literature try Pan Zagloba from With Fire and Sword , the fat "knight" who exaggarates every story and tells so many lies, but helps the heroine escape to her lover.

 

[Kristivas]

11. "The Overachiever." In school/on the training grounds, you were the best. The best at learning and casting spells, the best at swordplay, the most quiet thief, ect. After graduating at the top of your class and having your family, friends, associates, teachers, and total strangers tell you over and over that you destined for greatness, you took it to heart. Now you and your ego are on a mission to show everyone just how right they were about you!

12. "I'll show you! You'll see!" You were always last. The slowest, the weakest, the most inept. Everyone has always discounted you and your abilities. You've chosen adventuring as a path to greatness. You crave riches and fame, and of course to do good, but most of all you want to show everyone they were wrong.

13. "Wow, how'd I get here?" An average guy, with an average past. You're not weak, but you're not incredibly strong. People expected you to do well in life, but no one imagines you to be anything more than a farmer/blacksmith/local guard/apprentice wizard/acolyte. Somehow, you were thrust into adventuring and managed to survive things that have destroyed those greater than you. (may be the same as #7)

14. "He with an Inner Struggle." For some reason, you don't want to be good. You want to take the easy road. Can't afford something? Just take it! But no, your actions may end up hurting that merchant. Someone may get killed if you rob them. Your damned conscience keeps you from getting what you really want.

15. "By my Lord's Righteous Hand!" A religious zealot, wether a paladin, cleric, or just a plain fighter. Your god commands your actions, guides your hand. Even the simplest decision is based on your religious canon.

 

[DarkKestral]

Me too. But if behavior like this (distasteful, obscene, nihilistic vandalism of the campaign world, in a silly preening attempt to prove you rule all), I wouldn't tolerate it. I wouldn't hesitate to say "This action is the equivalent of jumping in a volcano and trying to swim in lava just to prove how awesome your Fort save is. It has no place in this game, and I'm not interested in whatever rules you want to twist to claim it does. If you insist, the character will perish."

The zombies thing is certainly out of line. However, that's the line at which I say "Goodbye. This campaign just ended," and look for other people. I won't make up in-character reasons that their fantasies won't happen.. I just won't play with the players.

 

[haakon1]

The zombies thing is certainly out of line. However, that's the line at which I say "Goodbye. This campaign just ended," and look for other people. I won't make up in-character reasons that their fantasies won't happen.. I just won't play with the players.

That's probably the better approach. But making up in-character "stops" might be a way to turn them around from terminal "badness", short of stopping the campaign.

Like I said, this is all theoretical for me. I never had to deal with it in an actual game.

 

[Elf Witch]

Maybe it would help the players if you gave some examples of "good guy" characters. It might just be a lack of imagination/knowledge.

I'll start off with ten, but it'd be cool if people add more:

1) The draftee. You didn't want this war, but this fight needs fighting. You're not going to compromise your personal moral values, but you'll get the job done as best you can -- best in both efficient and moral senses -- so you can go home to your family. Archetypal example: Tom Hanks character in "Saving Private Ryan", most characters in any "Greatest Generation" style WWII movie.

2) "With great power comes great responsibility." You realized you were destined for something more -- not everyone is given the powers of paladin/is a genius at wizardry, etc. To be a true hero, you know you must uses your gifts to benefit the less fortunate. Examples: Maybe the Lone Ranger?

3) Noblesse oblige. You are born a leader of your people. It is expected of you that you will fight and if necessary die for them. For this reason, they are loyal to your cause and respect your role, though perhaps they don't know who you are, because you're away from home or undercover for some reason. Examples: Odysseus, Aragorn

4) The second son. You are the second son of your noble family. You will not inherit. To make your way in the world, you need to get out there and do service to the realm, for the reputation of your family and from your own personal need to prove your worth. Example: Many real world medieval to early-modern warriors, explorers, etc.

5) The frontiersman. The fight came to you, but you'll see it through. With more power comes more ability to defend the defenseless.

6) The redeemed villain. You have seen the error of your ways, and now fight for good, partially to undo the harm you caused, and partially because you always knew good was right, even when you did wrong. Examples: St. Paul, Xena, Te'alq in Stargate SG-1, Lando Calrissian, Shane

7) The accidental hero. You rose to the occassion, maybe because you always secretly wanted to be an adventurer. Examples: Bilbo Baggins

8) For your brothers. Somehow he/they haven't themselves into this mess. You will see them through. Examples: Samwise Gamgee, lots of "Greatest Generation" characters

9) A credit to your race. Your people are looked down on. By being a hero, you can inspire them, and prove you and your people are just as good as anyone else. Examples: Most of the main characters in "Glory" and "Windtalkers", the American Indian in "Flags of Our Fathers".

10) The reluctant hero. You're bookish and slow moving. Or a cowardly. Maybe small. But you are needed in this fight, and you will do your best, discovering reservoirs of courage no one knew you had -- not even you. Examples: Andre Braugher's character in Glory, the translator in "Saving Private Ryan" (who also turned out to have a dark side), Rachel Weisz librarian in "The Mummy", the hero in "The Red Badge of Courage".

I'll stop at 10 to give other folks a chance.

These were great thank you. I copied them and sent them to my players and out a copy in my DMing notebook.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Where have all the heroes gone...

Gone to graveyards every one ...


I'm with the original poster -- I prefer D&D to be heroic, myself -- though I haven't found it too much of a problem. I find the players who perpetually want to be lone-wolf-PvPers and backstabbers are people I don't enjoy playing with. The occasional evil turn can be dramatic, and even an occasional evil game/campaign to try something different ... but not all the time, and especially not when the vision is one of a heroic campaign.

I mean, after the campaign, they're suppsoed to be able to say:

"I didn't play all that Dungeons & Dragons and not learn a little about courage."

 

[Elf Witch]

So I talked to the player in question today over dinner. In RL he is a nice guy and loyal kind friend, which is we still keep playing with him.

He is also a good role player, up until he stabs you in the back he is great in the game.

I know that he likes to play a meaty character with his fingers in a lot of pots. He likes to view himself as mysterious powerful character with a lot of secrets.

So I figured out how to give that to him while still playing a heroic character that is not out screw the party.

He is a double agent. Tiamat's spawm thinks he is their man inside yet he is really an agent with Bahumt deep undercover. No one in the party will know.

I think this will work, since he will really role play it and it will add some interesting elements to the game.

 

[Jonathan W Gamble]

I know this may not be the right place for this and completely off topic but I'm hoping one of you guys can see past that and offer some help to somebody who's been offline for a long time and looking for In-character DnD chat sites.
Anyone? Please? You will be venerated in the next life for offering your assistance.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I think part of it (a large part) is a lot of players' taste in fiction- especially the younger ones.

If you look back at the history of fiction, particularly the fiction that is the basis for modern sci-fi/fantasy, pulp, and horror, you see 90% of it is heroic.

Its not until you get into the 1900s that you start seeing the rise of well written, convincing heroes with a darker edge or true anti-heroes.

Since then, the dark hero/anti-heroic archetypes have been increasing in number and popularity pretty steadily.

There is nothing wrong with that.

The problem is that, while such archetypes are still the minority of the protagonists out there, they seem to be the predominant archetypes in the stuff people are reading.

Not that its all about choices made by the consumers, either- I find it hard to find the classic heroic fiction even on the shelves. If the book on the store shelf isn't Tolkien, its almost a guarantee that its someone new (less than 20 years of professional writing).

You can't buy what you can't find (or didn't even know existed). I can't send someone to buy the Fafhrd & Grey Mouser books since there is no Fritz Lieber on the shelves...and fewer schools teach the mythological literature and epics (Beowulf, Sir Gawain & the Green Knight, the Illiad, etc.) that helped shape Western culture.

Without good, solid, well-written choices in truly heroic fiction, the appeal of the dark or anti-hero has no counterpoint and no competition.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I know this may not be the right place for this and completely off topic but I'm hoping one of you guys can see past that and offer some help to somebody who's been offline for a long time and looking for In-character DnD chat sites.
Anyone? Please? You will be venerated in the next life for offering your assistance.

Start a new thread (with a title that says what you're looking for) and all the right people will see it.