Where have all the heroes gone?

[Mycanid]

If you want altruistic heroism, you need to encourage it.

• Work with the players to create PCs that have connections to society. Minor noble families, thieves' guilds, churches, knightly orders, wealthy patrons etc. It's hard to ask "What's in it for me?" when it's your father asking you to rescue your infant cousin.
• Give them a default budget for equipment using the wealth-by-level table; i.e., eliminate the need to loot every dead body.
• Make use of the Affiliations rules from PHB2 to reward them for working for the people I mention in my first point above.

Anyway, Elf Witch seems to have realized this, but, basically, if you as DM have made clear the tone of the game you want to run, and the group has bought into it, then any player who doesn't want to play the same game needs to be shown the door.

I am afraid this hits the nail on the head for me ... there has to be a premade ... err ... structure? of rewarding good deeds built into the presuppositions of the game. You would be surprised how many people actually enjoy playing good, heroic characters, but it takes a long time to get people there.

On a similiar note, for many the short term "triumph of evil" is a very hard thing to take, and this is equally true in real life, of course. "Here I have been, breaking my back and sweating bullets, endangering myself, etc. ,etc. ... and for WHAT?!" One of the nice things about gaming IMO (although I may definitely be in the minority) is that it gives a possible environment to help encourage one's ... err ... trust? in the triumph of good. Particularly in the long run of things, where it seems most often to manifest itself.

Some who play the selfish alignments do so because they feel it is an environment where they can not get shafted and "get away with things" ... perhaps b/c in real life part of them wishes they could? Hard to say.

In any event I have found (game experience wise both on a pc and a dm level) that the short term success route just isn't as fulfilling as the heroic route. Again, though, it is a hard thing to "school" other pc's in.

Pardon me folks ... I guess I am rambling a bit here. I'll get off the 'ole soapbox.

 

[VirgilCaine]

Since you don’t want this noble mission and you think it’s more important to save a few peasants on the fringes of the kingdom, from some goblins. Instead of securing the freedom of the heir-to-be

Actually it occurs to me that SAVING THE LIFE of the FUTURE KING is a very good way to secure ETERNAL GRATITUDE. People should be jumping at the chance. Loads of other adventurers want to gain the king and future king's favor.

In fact, the PCs should be asking very nicely for any information to get a head-start on everyone else, before the crowds of other people looking for the Prince succeed.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Actually it occurs to me that SAVING THE LIFE of the FUTURE KING is a very good way to secure ETERNAL GRATITUDE. People should be jumping at the chance. Loads of other adventurers want to gain the king and future king's favor.

In fact, the PCs should be asking very nicely for any information to get a head-start on everyone else, before the crowds of other people looking for the Prince succeed.

I agree. The heroes in my Midwood campaign aren't stupid: They know that the good deeds (that they'd do anyway) are also putting them in a good position to accomplish other things they want to accomplish.

Heck, multinational corporations in the real world spend a lot of money on charitable works. An organization that's run for pure profit understands that there's a benefit to altruisim. A player character that doesn't is Neutral Dim, IMO.

 

[Drowbane]

I favor Chaotic Good, Neutral Good, Neutral Evil, and Lawful Evil. The other 5 Alignments... meh.

 

[James Heard]

I actually prefer playing evil or neutral (jerk) characters occasionally, but I think setting up your whole background to screw around with the other players is pretty lame. I usually end up with my alignment preferences because alignment in D&D seems to demand a sort of gracious altruism rather than some motive that comes naturally for me. One tried and true reason to engage in the lovely pastime of killing things and taking their stuff with people with high falutin' morals though is that they're your pals and kin. If I were villianously evil I don't think that waiting around watching the LG folks gain levels would fly very well with me - I'd be killing them in their sleep before they became significant threats, kidnapping their children to force them in line with my own ideals...anything but hanging out in a huddle with a bunch of them of equal power. That's just stupid.

What I find fascinating is that often I find my evil characters acting "more good and altruistic" than heroes of a more classically heroic bent. This expectation of being "paid" for instance, instead of noting that every favor automatically comes with a price and that honorbound people are obligated to pay those debts else they fall out of favor with their deities. My characters LOVE doing things for good people, good people have predictable limitations on behavior (like "giving you the benefit of the doubt" when you appear to only "seem" evil) while evil folks can be more practical without running into ethical dilemmas.

And THAT's what a good anti-hero looks like. Maybe you hate him, distrust his motives, dislike him personally, wonder each time if he'll go to far, fear the consequences of earning his ire...but you're not going to sit around worrying about him actively being against you unless you go out of your way to tick him off. He's got reasons to hang out with you, like he thinks it will be amusing to watch you kill yourself, or he "just can't stand to let talent like that be wasted with so much naivity", or even "your hair, it reminds me of my dead mother...she screamed, the screams, they went on for hours..."

 

[megamania]

I have the same problem and I don't see a solution in it since I still want to run the game. I am just sure that if they do something "evil" or "unjust" they pay for it somehow. Which is how they like it.


Sick, sick sick people I run campaigns for.... :\

 

[Spatula]

But this has got me thinking why is so hard now a days to find a game where the players want to be heroes not just powermad looters who use their power to further their own agenda and gods help the poor villagers.

There was never some magical golden age of D&D where everyone wanted to play heroic types. The game was originally desinged around entering dangerous unexplored places, killing or avoiding the hazards, and making out with as much loot as possible. But aside from that, there have always been players who enjoy themsevles by disrupting others' game experience.

 

[Elf Witch]

There was never some magical golden age of D&D where everyone wanted to play heroic types. The game was originally desinged around entering dangerous unexplored places, killing or avoiding the hazards, and making out with as much loot as possible. But aside from that, there have always been players who enjoy themsevles by disrupting others' game experience.

When I first started playing we usually player heroes who did things for the sake of good we rarely choose to kill things to get their stuff. Sometimes it happened but most our loot and goodies came as rewards for a job well done.

And I rarely saw this lets make a character to screw everyone else over or a DM who would allow it.

I can understand that there are times when you don't want to play in a heroic game but to always want to play bad guys or indifferent guys to me just gets boring.

 

[haakon1]

My players, even the evil, greedy ones, know that working on the side of good means a) you usually get paid, b) you live to spend your pay, c) the rest of the people on the side of good are likely to help you if something goes wrong. This is because I make sure they generally get paid, aren't double crossed, and the people they helped in the past tend to be helpful in the future (exceptions are made for rude, insulting behavior).

I also tend to have the "dark siders" get arrested by the town guard, charged with crimes, and punished. If they wipe out the town guard, bounty posters go up left and right, with every innkeep, bouncer and itinerant adventurer vying for the reward.

Nod. This works for me too.

I was talking to another DM tonight at a party though. He said one of the guys he's played with for decades is always causing trouble -- stirring up monsters and leading them back to the party, PVP conflict, generally being obnoxious and getting in heaps of trouble. Happens in paper & pencil D&D since they were in high school, in DDO, and pretty much in real life too -- he tends to get fired or busted every few years. But they all grew up in the same tiny town, so they're like brothers . . . the "evil" one is a brother too, just a pain for everybody.

That actually might be an interesting role playing challenge ONCE -- playing the ne'erdowell screw up friend of the party.

 

[haakon1]

So unless players are coming to fantasy roleplaying from Grand Theft Auto, I'm not sure where you're coming from...

Well, I don't generally play electronic games. My impression from watching people play them and hearing people talk about them is that the focus is not at all on role playing, but on killing and leveling as a "neutral bad ass" aligned character.

My impression might be wrong. I think it's more from watching/playing games like Halo and other first person shooters in multiplayer PVP parties, and from the recent impression of Gears of War -- excellent game for someone who is still not at home with the Xbox controller, but to my mind "typical" in that the heroes are some sort of superheroically overmuscled ex-cons, and their only NPC contacts seem to be some sort of gang members.

Guitar Hero II might not lead to playing self-centered boring characters.