You know those mules that always manage to NOT be in the line of fire or otherwise collateral damage, when you'd swear that they were (thus, saving the party's loot from the BBEG's Fireballs?) = BlinkSpecter Donkeyhorse.
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Where is my Freaking Mule?!
- Thread starter Zaran
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GnomeWorks
Adventurer
Now that I am more awake, I think I have come up with a reasonable explanation as to why this sort of thing (the lack of costs and rules for "mundane" equipment and such) irritates some folks, myself included.
Those of you who are against the codification of some things seem to be coming at this from the idea that such "little things" don't matter. After all, if you're playing a character who regularly goes toe-to-toe with minor deities (or whatever else high-level 4e throws at you, I don't have much experience with epic tier), the cost of a mule or 10-foot poles is going to be irrelevant to you. Understandable, as it probably should be. Tracking your treasure to the silver, at those levels, is just tedium.
The problem, however, is that there are some folk who don't go to those extremes. The idea of playing a character for whom every silver counts is, for some, more interesting than playing Superman; that's not a knock on those who prefer playing high-powered characters, it's an accurate characterization.
"Sweating the small stuff" is, for some people, more interesting than playing a high-powered demigod. For myself, I have to ask - what's the point in playing a character that can level cities? How can I even begin to relate to such a character? Such a being doesn't exist in the real world. Their experiences and their interactions with other people are going to be so completely alien to me that I can't even begin to fathom it.
However, I could - and I stress "could" very heavily - if I wanted, go pick up a 10-foot pole at the local Fleet Farm, pick up a hammer or similar heavy instrument, and head into my city's sewers looking for giant rats to slay. Sane and reasonable, probably not - but it is certainly within my power to imagine doing so. Playing a character who does so is entertaining to me because it is something I could possibly do, and thus allows me to entertain the idea of doing so without actually doing it.
You can go ahead and claim, "but there's magic and dragons and all sorts of nonsensical things" all you like, but there are generally reasonable analogues in the real world to these things. Fireball? Flamethrowers or grenades. Magical healing? Modern medicine sure as heck seems like magic, sometimes, to a layman such as myself. Teleport? I've seen Star Trek, and while it might not be reasonable at the moment, the technology has passed into the mainstream such that it's not that far-fetched to imagine a world in which it exists.
But you start getting into the crazy high-powered world of fighting deities, fending off entire armies by yourself... I mean, that stuff if not just beyond my personal experience, it is nigh-improbable if not straight-up impossible. I can relate to a character who wanders around with a sword fighting bandits, because that is something that I could, if I really wanted to, go out and do right now. I can't relate to a character that modifies the world on a whim with a single word, or who can fight deities.
Some people seem to hate on the "dreary tedium" that is lower levels, but you know what? Even that dreary tedium that a 1st-level character engages in is something that we don't go out and do everyday. When was the last time you cracked the skull of a goblin with a club, or fought a bunch of city guards because you decided you wanted to steal stuff rather than pay for it? Yeah, it's pedestrian, and yeah, it's not epic or world-changing... but it's something you can relate to, because - if you really wanted - you could go out into the real world and actually do those things (with the trappings a bit different, but the basic idea is still the same).
Escapism, for me and those like me, is not playing a character that is so powerful and absurd that entire armies stand no chance against them. Escapism for me is playing a character that can do things that, if the world weren't what it were, I could go do. I enjoy worrying about encumbrance and donkeys and 10-foot poles because they are things that I would worry about if I were a half-crazy guy heading into a dungeon filled with critters who are more interested in eating me than having a reasonable conversation, and death-traps designed by architects of a civilization now long gone. The fantastic elements are well and good - who doesn't enjoy casting spells, or fighting dragons? - but for me, they need to be couched in the mundane in order for it to have any relevance to me at all.
For me, there is more wonder in doing things that, if I were perhaps just a touch more crazy, I would be able to do in the real world, than there is in playing a super-powered character capable of leveling cities.
Those of you who are against the codification of some things seem to be coming at this from the idea that such "little things" don't matter. After all, if you're playing a character who regularly goes toe-to-toe with minor deities (or whatever else high-level 4e throws at you, I don't have much experience with epic tier), the cost of a mule or 10-foot poles is going to be irrelevant to you. Understandable, as it probably should be. Tracking your treasure to the silver, at those levels, is just tedium.
The problem, however, is that there are some folk who don't go to those extremes. The idea of playing a character for whom every silver counts is, for some, more interesting than playing Superman; that's not a knock on those who prefer playing high-powered characters, it's an accurate characterization.
"Sweating the small stuff" is, for some people, more interesting than playing a high-powered demigod. For myself, I have to ask - what's the point in playing a character that can level cities? How can I even begin to relate to such a character? Such a being doesn't exist in the real world. Their experiences and their interactions with other people are going to be so completely alien to me that I can't even begin to fathom it.
However, I could - and I stress "could" very heavily - if I wanted, go pick up a 10-foot pole at the local Fleet Farm, pick up a hammer or similar heavy instrument, and head into my city's sewers looking for giant rats to slay. Sane and reasonable, probably not - but it is certainly within my power to imagine doing so. Playing a character who does so is entertaining to me because it is something I could possibly do, and thus allows me to entertain the idea of doing so without actually doing it.
You can go ahead and claim, "but there's magic and dragons and all sorts of nonsensical things" all you like, but there are generally reasonable analogues in the real world to these things. Fireball? Flamethrowers or grenades. Magical healing? Modern medicine sure as heck seems like magic, sometimes, to a layman such as myself. Teleport? I've seen Star Trek, and while it might not be reasonable at the moment, the technology has passed into the mainstream such that it's not that far-fetched to imagine a world in which it exists.
But you start getting into the crazy high-powered world of fighting deities, fending off entire armies by yourself... I mean, that stuff if not just beyond my personal experience, it is nigh-improbable if not straight-up impossible. I can relate to a character who wanders around with a sword fighting bandits, because that is something that I could, if I really wanted to, go out and do right now. I can't relate to a character that modifies the world on a whim with a single word, or who can fight deities.
Some people seem to hate on the "dreary tedium" that is lower levels, but you know what? Even that dreary tedium that a 1st-level character engages in is something that we don't go out and do everyday. When was the last time you cracked the skull of a goblin with a club, or fought a bunch of city guards because you decided you wanted to steal stuff rather than pay for it? Yeah, it's pedestrian, and yeah, it's not epic or world-changing... but it's something you can relate to, because - if you really wanted - you could go out into the real world and actually do those things (with the trappings a bit different, but the basic idea is still the same).
Escapism, for me and those like me, is not playing a character that is so powerful and absurd that entire armies stand no chance against them. Escapism for me is playing a character that can do things that, if the world weren't what it were, I could go do. I enjoy worrying about encumbrance and donkeys and 10-foot poles because they are things that I would worry about if I were a half-crazy guy heading into a dungeon filled with critters who are more interested in eating me than having a reasonable conversation, and death-traps designed by architects of a civilization now long gone. The fantastic elements are well and good - who doesn't enjoy casting spells, or fighting dragons? - but for me, they need to be couched in the mundane in order for it to have any relevance to me at all.
For me, there is more wonder in doing things that, if I were perhaps just a touch more crazy, I would be able to do in the real world, than there is in playing a super-powered character capable of leveling cities.
Drkfathr1
First Post
also, its not so much that anyone NEEDS this, its just that they WANT it.
Nothing wrong with that. Really.
What some would call a "crutch", others would call "options".
A 32 page booklet with mundane gear, animals, and maybe some new alchemical items to boot would be an nice product. Maybe something a 3PP could come up with. (hint-hint)
Nothing wrong with that. Really.
What some would call a "crutch", others would call "options".
A 32 page booklet with mundane gear, animals, and maybe some new alchemical items to boot would be an nice product. Maybe something a 3PP could come up with. (hint-hint)
Vyvyan Basterd
Adventurer
I can only speak for myself, but I don't think anyone is against such a product. We may not understand the need. And the general bewilderment of the thread is that ideas for working around the lack of these items are brushed off as useless. There's also a bit of a reality check going on here. You can hold your breath for WotC's Complete(ly) Useless or you can take the advice to wing it yourself. Which solution do you think will help your game the soonest?
And the structure of such a book is dependant on context. A book about mass combat and troop movements would probably sell well. Including a section on the use of beasts of burden, the different types, and the advantages/disadvantages of each would probably work really well. But a book of random stuff that includes an entry for mule that goes into the exact same information would seem out of context and not sell very well, IMO.
Zaran
Adventurer
I don't think we're going to march on the wizards HQ and have a non-violent protest for a book of useless stuff. Winging it is what everyone HAS to do now so nothing is really changing in that respect. Noone is holding their breath. You can't hold your breath and ask for donkeyhorses at the same time anyway.
El Mahdi
Muad'Dib of the Anauroch
LOL!
"Put the loot over there on the mule...*blink*...I mean over there...*blink*...okay, over there then...*blink*...It's behind me, isn't it?"
Mistwell
Crusty Old Meatwad
YOU: "Feel free to replace "10-foot pole" with any other relatively mundane, non-combat item. Believe it or not, there are gamers out there who want to "sweat the small stuff," because it forms the foundation for our games."
ME:"You tell me how looking up mundane stuff in books forms the formations of your role playing games. "
How is it a strawman? You characterized it as mundane stuff, and you characterized it as the foundation of your game. So, what strawman? You meant the "looking up stuff in books" part? That is in fact the topic of this thread. My argument is that you should not feel the need to look that stuff up in books - that's the argument you initially responded to (that's the "sweating the small stuff"). So, how is this a strawman?
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Mark Chance
Boingy! Boingy!
Perhaps in the same way that a reference book is a crutch?
Zaran
Adventurer
I can just hear my pack rhino now. " You want me to walk up that path that winds around a precipitous cliff? And you know that there are birds up there. BIRDS, MAN!. Nuh uh. I ain't doing it."
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