Where is my Freaking Mule?!

[Ourph]

But if resources are scarce, and ekeing out those resources is part of the challenge in a 1st level, every silver piece counts kind of way, then it's useful to have all that detail there for reference.

If a PC has so much loot he needs a mule to carry it, then it seems to me that said PC isn't really at the point where he's "ekeing" out a living anymore. In fact, I officially dub this Ourph's Roleplaying Truism #1...

"At the point where your PC needs a mule to haul his loot around, it becomes safe for the DM to hand-wave the price of said mule."

 

[I'm A Banana]

Seems to me information is power for the imagination and every bit of aid helps.

I agree, though I honestly think that "reskinning" works really well for a lot of these things you're talking about.

What is the difference, mechanically, between a riding horse and a donkey?

It's not much, man.

Though I'm on board with considering the lack of a 10' pole to be abhorrent.

What can they spend it on now? Well you can buy magical stuff and that's almost all you can buy.

Methinks this is by design. GP is more of a character advancement thing than an "ale and whores" thing in 4e (and in 3e, though it was less acknowledged).

I might point out that a book of useless stuff would only be useless in combat. It would have great roleplaying uses.

Man, I am pretty much always on board with filling 4e to the brim with a hot, steaming injection of creamy, sticky fluff. It needs it like most models need sammiches. But we're gonna need more than a book that lists the cost of horseshoes to do it. This isn't the best target, I think.

I'd like a nice "ad-hoc GP cost" for things, maybe. And 10' poles. And maybe a handful of other mundane items.

But I don't need much. 350 hardbacked pages of it might be too much for me. Probably, WotC thinks that it would be too much for most folks, so it wouldn't be very profitable.

Braybeast Donkeyhorses get no love 'cuz they just ain't different enough from Warbeast Packmounts.

 

[Mistwell]

Yeah, there's a lot of "badwrongfun" in this thread.

I don't think it's "wrong" to want a book of mundane items, I just think some people would be better served by working on their on-the-fly skills for things like this. More rules for things you can do yourself in a single breath can serve as a crutch.

 

[Orius]

For some people, the 10-foot pole is an extraneous, unimportant detail, not even worthy of having a cost.

For others, the 10-foot pole is the most important thing in the world, and makes all the difference for their character.

What are you going to use to probe for those traps then, some body part? That's why the game has (HAD) poles!

I mean, using rhino's to pull carts and carry stuff is a little cooler then the mule.

But still. There should be a mule.

Yeah, because not only are rhinos even more stubborn than mules, they're also pretty dangerous when pissed. And they're always pissed. I wouldn't use them for hauling stuff.

And a pony for the gnomes and halflings.

Don't need a pony when the gnomes got cut from the fist PHB!

Or possibly the Badtrip Donkeyhorse.

And while we're talking about certain animals in this game, what about the proverbial creatures from various sayings and stories, like Mudlurker Skyboars (flying pigs), the Doomspeaker Raptorling (Chicken Little) and Tentnosing Sandbeasts (the camel who gets his nose under the tent)?

I'd prefer Tentnosing Spitbeast. That's what camels are known for.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

If a PC has so much loot he needs a mule to carry it, then it seems to me that said PC isn't really at the point where he's "ekeing" out a living anymore. In fact, I officially dub this Ourph's Roleplaying Truism #1...

"At the point where your PC needs a mule to haul his loot around, it becomes safe for the DM to hand-wave the price of said mule."

Such truism needs at least some caveats or notes.

I've been in a few adventures where the only thing of value was so massive or unwieldy that it was impossible to move without either a mule-team or breaking the treasure up.

And in some cases, that latter action could have some serious repercussions...

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Yeah, because not only are rhinos even more stubborn than mules, they're also pretty dangerous when pissed. And they're always pissed. I wouldn't use them for hauling stuff.

And, lets face it, mules can go places that rhinos fear to tread...like treacherous trails up the steep sides of a gorge (think of the Grand Canyon) or up the side of mountains or volcanoes (Santorini).

Not to mention the hassles of moving a rhino around in a series of 10' wide, 10' tall dungeon passageways...

(Oh yeah- did I mention that they sometimes wag their tails vigorously while pooping, creating a "hitting the fan" effect?)

 

[GnomeWorks]

WHO? For WHO is the 10-foot pole stats the most important thing in the world and makes all the difference for their character? Find me this person so we can ask them why.

Your outrage fills me with joy.

You tell me how looking up mundane stuff in books forms the formations of your role playing games.

Your strawman, however, irritates me.

 

[Alex319]

What I don't understand is the need for this to be codified. How often does it really matter what the exact carrying capacity of a mule is? Do you really need the exact movement rates? Why?

Again, it depends on the situation.

Here's an example. Let's say you have a scenario where the PCs are in charge of logistics for an army, and need to muster up enough mules, horses, etc. to bring X amount of goods from point A to point B in a certain amount of time, given limited resources. Then knowing things like how much a mule can carry, how far the mule could go in a day, how much food the mule would need, how quickly a mule can be trained, what options are available to improve any of those characteristics (e.g. spells, training techniques, equipment etc.) WOULD be very important to solve the problem.

Now, admittedly, there are a few solutions. You could just make up the information you need. But that would require a significant amount of work to get right, and if the players came up with an idea you didn't think of you would have to create even more information on the fly. More likely what you would do in such a situation is abstract the whole thing out into some sort of skill challenge. But that has a few problems:

1. You have to know in advance that that skill challenge is coming so you can prepare for it. Admittedly in the example above, it's probably not something that would happen unless it was planned in advance. But it's easy to imagine scenarios that aren't.

2. More importantly, it reduces the opportunity for meaningful decision making on the part of the players. Let's say the players are deciding "Should we train more mules now, or are we better off spending our time collaring the oxen and forcing them into service?" Presumably in a skill challenge, the player would say what they wanted to do, and then roll a skill check. The only link between the player's decision and his chance of success is a DM judgement (as to what skill, and whether to give a bonus or penalty) - so the player is essentially trying to guess the DM's judgement. But if the player had the stats, they could actually make the decision based on the stats, and thus they would have an opportunity for their problem-solving skills to make a difference.

(For an analogy, consider combat. The rules don't tell the players to just describe their tactics and the DM gives a bonus or penalty based on his judgement; the rules give the players tools to actually implement their own tactics, and then the rules determine the result. Having more rules ofr mundane items would make it so you could extend that paradigm into non-combat problem solving.)

 

[pemerton]

Here's an example. Let's say you have a scenario where the PCs are in charge of logistics for an army, and need to muster up enough mules, horses, etc. to bring X amount of goods from point A to point B in a certain amount of time, given limited resources. Then knowing things like how much a mule can carry, how far the mule could go in a day, how much food the mule would need, how quickly a mule can be trained, what options are available to improve any of those characteristics (e.g. spells, training techniques, equipment etc.) WOULD be very important to solve the problem.

Now, admittedly, there are a few solutions. You could just make up the information you need. But that would require a significant amount of work to get right, and if the players came up with an idea you didn't think of you would have to create even more information on the fly. More likely what you would do in such a situation is abstract the whole thing out into some sort of skill challenge.

The design intent of 4e is pretty clearly that this sort of thing is to be handled as a skill challenge. The DMG2 gives suggestions for what benefits are gained in a skill challenge by spending money (from memory, its 10% of the value of a magic item of the PC's level counts as a secondary success). From this information, the expectation is that the players and GM fit the narrative to the appropriate number of mules.

it reduces the opportunity for meaningful decision making on the part of the players. Let's say the players are deciding "Should we train more mules now, or are we better off spending our time collaring the oxen and forcing them into service?" Presumably in a skill challenge, the player would say what they wanted to do, and then roll a skill check. The only link between the player's decision and his chance of success is a DM judgement (as to what skill, and whether to give a bonus or penalty) - so the player is essentially trying to guess the DM's judgement. But if the player had the stats, they could actually make the decision based on the stats, and thus they would have an opportunity for their problem-solving skills to make a difference.

A minor quibble - in 3E the players would also have to gamble on the GM's judgment as to the DC for collaring oxen. And if in 3E the players are allowed to have that information before choosing, then presumably in 4e they're allowed to know what +/-2 bonus the GM is going to apply for choosing mules over oxen.

A bigger disagreement - 4e is fairly clearly not designed to be played in the way you canvass here. For better or worse. Hence it doesn't provide the sort of information that would support this sort of play. For better or worse.

 

[Lanefan]

A bigger disagreement - 4e is fairly clearly not designed to be played in the way you canvass here. For better or worse. Hence it doesn't provide the sort of information that would support this sort of play. For better or worse.

Given the right material to work with, a half-decent DM can easily trump the design and make the game play any way she wants. It's a lot of work, but made much easier if someone else comes up with the right material...in this case, a mundane items guide.

Lan-"anyone know if Zaran found his mule yet?"-efan