Where is my Freaking Mule?!

[AdmundfortGeographer]

I really prefer having a "magic economy" that's divorced from gold, because then players feel that a fine standard of living is what gold is for, and act accordingly. It was a problem in 3e, and it's still one today.

Now that we've got the whole "alternate rewards for magic items" set up, there's really such an opportunity. Let people use alternate rewards as the basis for a separate economy of power-ups, and then figure out a gold-just-for-luxuries economy. Probably won't happen, but ah well, one can dream.

I'm chiming in late, only getting to the thread now. I haven't read the whole thread but I wanted to chime in that Fantasy Craft indeed does exactly this. Alternate rewards for magic items that is.

 

[Imaro]

This is exactly what the skill challenge mechanics are for:

1. The GM assigns the difficulty (based on party level + circumstances).

2. The players use their knowledge of the ingame situation and the skill challenge rules to devise a plan. In light of the plan, the GM may adjust the difficulty assigned at step 1 (this is one area where narrative responsibility is shared between players and GM).

3. The players and the GM "run the plan through the rules system", including taking account of any modifications to the plan required by changes to the ingame situation that unfold during the course of resolving the skill challenge (see DMG2 for discussion of this).

Now I'm happy to admit that the skill challenge rules could do with more work to support GMs and players at each of steps 1 to 3 (they compare poorly to other games with similar mechanics, for example, in terms of the guidance they give). And I'll also allow that they may not be the sorts of mechanics that some people enjoy. But it seems bizarre to me to assert that 4e lacks such mechanics.

I think if the 4e skill list is suppose to cover the various actions that characters can achieve either the skill list needs to expand or further PHB's should expand on what can be accomplished with different skills so that players and DM's understand and know what they can drive narratively with the limited skills they have... I think this is especially important for limited skill classes like the Fighter.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Just as a side note, I sometimes wonder if this attitude is what hampers the expansion of D&D into a wider player base. I mean I look at videogames like Fable, Fable 2, Oblivion, WoW and so on... that have rules to allow players the option to step beyond "adventuring" and do other things such as crafting, buying houses and businesses, and so on. In fact I would say most people are starting to expect rpg's to do exactly this and that the play experience becomes richer and more diverse for it... which in turn leads to a wider base of people who can find enjoyment in the game.

I find it a little dissapointing that not only has 4e decided to devolve in this area as opposed to evolving, refine and exapnd, but that those who play the game see this as a good thing and embrace it to the point where the other side is viewed as wrong for even suggesting that some may want other things.

That's a really interesting theory. I do bet a "genre expansion" on crafting and economic activity in D&D would be something I'd be interested in peeking through, if only for adventure seeds.

 

[darjr]

I find it a little dissapointing that not only has 4e decided to devolve in this area as opposed to evolving, refine and exapnd, but that those who play the game see this as a good thing and embrace it to the point where the other side is viewed as wrong for even suggesting that some may want other things.

I think you go to far. I play the game, I really enjoy and appreciate the game, I don't see a big need for me to have these lists. I don't get anywhere close to what you've stated as my opinion. I actually resent your characterization of me as one of those who play the game.

 

[Imaro]

I think you go to far. I play the game, I really enjoy and appreciate the game, I don't see a big need for me to have these lists. I don't get anywhere close to what you've stated as my opinion. I actually resent your characterization of me as one of those who play the game.

I play the game as well, so why don't we look at it as a generalization of the sentiment that seems prevalent in both the designers/developers and some/many of the fanbase that embrace 4e's supposed focus on what is important in D&D? That way instead of focusing on the minutae of how I stated an idea, we can continue with discussing the actual idea? Apologies if my mis-statement offended you.

 

[darjr]

I'm not offended. I'm resentful. Not to mention I think your characterization is wrong. I think there are 4e players in this very thread that have expressed a desire for such lists or books or items as core to the game.

Your characterization, I don't think, is helpful to this conversation. However, I'll refrain from continuing to discuss it, I accept the watering down you've done.

 

[Imaro]

I'm not offended. I'm resentful. Not to mention I think your characterization is wrong. I think there are 4e players in this very thread that have expressed a desire for such lists or books or items as core to the game.

Your characterization, I don't think, is helpful to this conversation. However, I'll refrain from continuing to discuss it, I accept the watering down you've done.

Again, as I said earlier... I am one of them. Dude, what do you want me to say? I just posted that I mis-stated and that my statement should be taken as what the prevalent sentiment seems to be regarding 4e... from both the designers and some/many of it's fans... D&D is a fantasy action game and and it focuses on being that is the impression I get... The game focuses on what is important to this and not on what isn't... if you feel this is not the case, please expound.

Otherwise, I'm starting to feel like you' re looking for a reason to "resent" my post and not at all addressing the idea behind it. Not sure what else to say.

 

[LostSoul]

I think if the 4e skill list is suppose to cover the various actions that characters can achieve either the skill list needs to expand or further PHB's should expand on what can be accomplished with different skills so that players and DM's understand and know what they can drive narratively with the limited skills they have... I think this is especially important for limited skill classes like the Fighter.

You don't need to have the appropriate skill in order to attempt something; you can roll Stat + 1/2 level mod. The skill list isn't restrictive, it's a list of things a character can focus on. I think.

How I do non-combat stuff: figure out what level the opposition is (1-3, 4-6, 7-9, etc.) and give it a DC. Herding mules? Use the level of the terrain and there's the DC.

Anyway, check it: http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan-creations-house-rules/270905-fiction-first-skills.html (I think I've revised some stuff since then.)

 

[Turtlejay]

This is prime territory for a 3PP. Put out a 12 page PDF barebones with some lists of common non-magical adventuing gear, price it low, and call it a day. You don't need an entire book about this stuff, and shoehorning it into AV3 or DMG3 is unnecessary. A Dragon magazine article would be fine, too.

Jay

 

[darjr]

the prevalent sentiment seems to be regarding 4e... from both the designers and some/many of it's fans... D&D is a fantasy action game and and it focuses on being that is the impression I get... The game focuses on what is important to this and not on what isn't...

I agree to an extent, I think it's wrong to use such a broad brush, but I also think it's more than that. Even 4e. I think many see that in 4e a reduction in rules to handle these things in detail or directly as a retreat from that kind of play. That I don't agree with.