In old D&D, the "inch" is 10 feet in a dungeon, the same (usually) as a "square" on a graph-paper map. And that's the usual resolution of the combat rules: combatants in a melee are somewhere within 10' of each other. As the position of each one is uncertain (shifting throughout the one-minute round), the melee as a whole is a probabilistic region with an average center.
Wherefore "mini-less" D&D assumptions?
- Thread starter Henry
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jaerdaph
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The Shaman
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I agree. They help set the scene.
Actually the box reads "paper and pencil and miniature figures"This pretty much sums up my thoughts on the OP's topic:
See? Proof is in the pudding. D&D is meant to be played with paper, pencil, and nothing but the players' imaginations. Just like it says on the box.
So "yes" to minis, just like it says on the box.
I think he's being sarcastic.
I certainly have enjoyed using figurines and model terrain; I'm a fan of war-gaming (Napoleonic, especially), and, as I mentioned above, of The Fantasy Trip. It does not follow that I consider it some kind of bonus for a "board game" to be nearly a requirement to play something billed as D&D -- the assumed default rather than a nice optional touch. For some people, it's a great distraction from the "theater of the mind"; I suspect, though, that they are likely to find other such distractions as well in 3e and 4e.
I get that 4e may be even more board-centric, but I think it was probably very unusual not to use minis with 3e. Heck, I'll bet that figures were already a pretty big deal among people who started with 1e in the later 1980s, because (1) they were often in stores with the books, and were featured in Dragon and other magazines; and (2) Citadel Miniatures and Warhammer were also becoming very visible; and (3) many gamers had more money to spend, or at least had spent more since, than half a decade or so earlier (including some who earlier had few miniatures).
This pretty much sums up my thoughts on the OP's topic:
See? Proof is in the pudding. D&D is meant to be played with paper, pencil, and nothing but the players' imaginations. Just like it says on the box.
The picture clearly shows "and Miniature Figures"
That sums it up indeed.
My theory is this:
One of the supposed reasons 2e came about was to consolidate the rules and clean them up (and get rid of Gary).
As part of the evolution of how gaming changed, towards the end of 1E and most of 2E, there was a drift away from wargaming style of battlemat play, and more "it's all in your head"
3e brought it back to the dungeon, which was inherently map-oriented, which in turn meant a battlemat.
Henry
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Thanks for all the commentary -- it gives me a pretty neat perspective. I had supposed that 2E was where minis play had declined - but to see quite a few of the 1E players who never played with minis (or to be more accurate, spatial representation) is surprising to me.
For my part, my old 1E group played with Risk pieces back when they were plastic roman numeral I's, III's, and V's, and we used the V's for the PCs, and the I's and III's for monsters - so we always used "minis" in some fashion. In 2E, we fell away from that, resumed minis in late 2E (1998 or so) with real lead and pewter minis, and then when 3E came out used minis from there on out. Oddly, though, my first D&D experience was without minis - I trained on the Moldvay Basic Game, and we didn't know what minis were, back then...
For 1E, I felt some of the nuance was lost when minis play wasn't used -- for instance, burning your allies with fireballs or lightning bolts, or getting whacked by the orc with the spear when you charged him without wasting a turn to carefully engage him.
Oh, and
Try telling that to someone in a Goblin warren or Ankheg burrow. Using Fireballs as written in 1E and 2E is one of the most fun memories from my early gaming days, both as a DM and a player.
For my part, my old 1E group played with Risk pieces back when they were plastic roman numeral I's, III's, and V's, and we used the V's for the PCs, and the I's and III's for monsters - so we always used "minis" in some fashion. In 2E, we fell away from that, resumed minis in late 2E (1998 or so) with real lead and pewter minis, and then when 3E came out used minis from there on out. Oddly, though, my first D&D experience was without minis - I trained on the Moldvay Basic Game, and we didn't know what minis were, back then...
For 1E, I felt some of the nuance was lost when minis play wasn't used -- for instance, burning your allies with fireballs or lightning bolts, or getting whacked by the orc with the spear when you charged him without wasting a turn to carefully engage him.
Oh, and
Voadam said:
Try telling that to someone in a Goblin warren or Ankheg burrow.
Using Fireballs as written in 1E and 2E is one of the most fun memories from my early gaming days, both as a DM and a player.Janx, how do you think a naive, purely speculative "theory" comes off to people who have actually been playing since before AD&D?
D&D spun off from the "miniature wargames" hobby. One certainly could play it with figures, and some people made considerable use of them, but that was not a practical necessity -- just as roleplaying (in the RPG sense) is not necessary to wargaming. Even "meant to be" is a bit silly when Gygax himself preferred not to use miniatures.
That it is easy to play old D&D without a grid and markers is evidenced by actual experience. The practice seems to me much more common than with 3e or 4e, and I think there is an objective component of rules-dependence. That element aside, the "game culture" in 4e seems overwhelmingly to assume the board game aspect.
That aspect makes it pretty difficult to play while people are lounging around a living room, riding in an automobile -- basically any situation other than everyone gathered around a table (and one of adequate size).
D&D spun off from the "miniature wargames" hobby. One certainly could play it with figures, and some people made considerable use of them, but that was not a practical necessity -- just as roleplaying (in the RPG sense) is not necessary to wargaming. Even "meant to be" is a bit silly when Gygax himself preferred not to use miniatures.
That it is easy to play old D&D without a grid and markers is evidenced by actual experience. The practice seems to me much more common than with 3e or 4e, and I think there is an objective component of rules-dependence. That element aside, the "game culture" in 4e seems overwhelmingly to assume the board game aspect.
That aspect makes it pretty difficult to play while people are lounging around a living room, riding in an automobile -- basically any situation other than everyone gathered around a table (and one of adequate size).
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