D&D 5E Which Ability Scores are the most involved ones on Saving Throws

[Zardnaar]

The best saves are basically the fighter ones-constitution and strength and the 1st save is very very common due to concentration saves. Dex saves are kind of rare and only deal damage which is easily mitigated by spells and healing.

Wisdom and Charisma saves are good to have especially the 1st save. Intelligence saves are so rare as to be almost unheard of.

Constitution, Wisdom, dex, strength, charisma and intelligence saves I would rate in order of good saving throws. Charisma saves are kind of rare.

 

[bedir than]

I calculated the totals

Str: 78 saves. Mostly prone, forced movement, and restrained
Dex: 114. Mostly avoid AoE. Some Ray effects. Some few prone from balancing
Con: 168. Exhaustion, Concentration, Poison, Cold, Radiant, Necrotic, Stunned, Paralyzed, Blinded, Die, Unconscious, Poisoned, Lower max HP, Disease
Int: 8. lol who cares
Wis: 92. Frightened, Sleep, Charmed, Other mental defenses
Cha: 22. lol who cares. Banished, possessed, soul trapping.

More evidence that Intelligence is the least useful attribute in the game. Only one full class needs it to cast (2 partial casters), and the saves are useless too.

 

[Staffan]

I think a good Constitution save is more useful for PCs than monsters. I was just scanning through the list of spells in the PHB, and there are not very many that disable on a Constitution save - there are quite a few that inflict nasty damage, but not so many that disable or inflict nasty conditions. Wisdom is definitely the save most often used for save-or-suck spells.

Of course, there are many monsters that inflict conditions on failed Constitution saves (most commonly poison, I think), so PCs really want good Constitution saves as well. But from an offensive point of view, it's hard to find spells that target both Wis and Con saves.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

My 2¢ on 5e Saves is different than the above posters. Saves in 5e are, as far as I read them, "when nothing else would come into play other than "sheer, uncut, dumb luck and godly favour".

I have found that Intelligence saves seem to have the most dramatic effect on the game. Dexterity tend to be "momentary", as does Constitution (even if "momentary" means..."until spell X can be cast"). Strength can be pretty dramatic as well, with failure sometimes utterly stymieing the PC(s) progress. Wisdom, from a sadistic DM perspective, are the most entertaining to watch (players role-play something they really don't want to...e.g, being charmed by a hideous creature that needs them for a quick 'pro-creation' session, for example).

I also freely substitute various Skill checks in place of a Save if it's appropriate for the situation; e.g., an Athletics check for some particularly large PC race fighter guy trying to resist being "pushed back" (say, a Thunderous Smite spell). This seems to have worked out even better than flat-out "saves", IMHO.

One of the cool things about 5e is it's "lower baseline" (I think they call it "Bounded Accuracy") for numbers. It's really, really hard to "build" a character that "wins" all the time in it's focused area. Well, unless you are using a bunch of optional crap like Feats and Multiclassing, and you have a DM who only tries to run games "by-the-book" (e.g., if the book doesn't say X, then the DM won't rule X, even though it makes perfect campaign-logic sense). If those factors are in play in your game...well, uh...prepare for a LOT of table arguments and DM frustration that ultimately leads to a dead campaign. The role of the DM as arbitrator of the rules is an actual requirement for the rules to run smoothly.

Bottom line: All Saves are equally useful, in my experience. Dexterity does come up a lot, but the effects are usually minor and/or easily overcome/rectified. Intelligence and Charisma ones are less common, but can have very dramatic and long-lasting effects. Constitution, Strength and Wisdom all come into play off and on, and can have vastly differing effects, overall. So...they are ALL equally useful. Don't sweat the small stuff. Enjoy playing your character the way you want, because 5e doesn't "punish" a player for taking "sub-optimal" choices...mainly because there are pretty much zero "sub-optimal" choices (unless, as I said, Feats + MC + bad DM are in play).

PS: I use "saves" when there is no skill that would be appropriate for a PC to use. For example, "Quick! We rush to that cobbler guy! The one we met in the inn who said he had a shop here!" ...DM:"Uh, what was his name and where did he say his shop was?" ... "Err...crap! What was his name?! C'mon guys...where was it? Weaver street or Water street?" ...DM: "Uh, no streets by that name here...you sure it was this city?" ... "Yeah...I think...double crap!" ...DM: "OK, Intelligence save time...". This type of "save" comes up at least as often as a 'book requested' save, and when these one's come up, it can be anything, but typically Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma in my game...but only by a smidge.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Kryx]

I use "saves" when there is no skill that would be appropriate for a PC to use.

What you just described is an Intelligence ability check. You've created houserules that vastly change what saves are used for so of course your experiences differ.

SAVING THROWS
A saving throw-also called a save-represents an attempt to resist a spell, a trap, a poison, a disease, or a similar threat. You don't normally decide to make a saving throw; you are forced to make one because your character or monster is at risk of harm.

ABILITY CHECKS
An ability check tests a character's or monster's innate talent and training in an effort to overcome a challenge. The DM calls for an ability check when a character or monster attempts an action (other than an attack) that has a chance of failure. When the outcome is uncertain, the dice determine the results.
For every ability check, the DM decides which of the six abilities is relevant to the task at hand and the difficulty of the task, represented by a Difficulty Class. The more difficult a task, the higher its DC. The Typical Difficulty Classes table shows the most common DCs.

 

[redrick]

First of all, do not overthink it. Every table is going to be different in terms of what is and isn't the "most useful" ability. Most campaigns will use only a small subset of monsters in the MM. DMs will also often bring monsters in from outside sources or make up their own. Different DM's will also often call for saves in all sorts of different situations outside of traditional combat. For instance, Dex saves are very common when triggering traps — a successful Dex save can keep a PC from falling into a pit, for instance. I've called for Charisma saves in role-play when a character says something potentially stupid to an NPC. Intelligence saves are often used to detect various illusions, which can have potentially deadly effects if used effectively.

The idea of the 3 major saves and the 3 minor saves seems to hold true in my campaign. Dex, Con and Wis come up all the time. Str is pretty common as well, though generally for melee combatants. Int and Cha come up less often, but the effects can be fairly devastating when they do. (For instance, Banish moves you into another plane of existence with one failed save. Once you're there, there is nothing you can do to return to the material plane until the caster stops concentrating on the spell. Compare to Hold Person, where you can continue making attempting saves every turn the spell is in effect.)

Personally, when choosing my abilities, I try to think of, "which skills would my character be ok at?" Obviously, proficiency will pick up the main skills of a character, but your abilities will also give you bonuses in various skill checks. Do you want your character to be a little better at climbing, running and jumping, while not proficient? That's Athletics, and it generally uses the Strength ability. Do you want your character to be well-informed and capable of figuring out complicated items, research, etc? Those are all Intelligence based skills.

 

[Kryx]

I've called for Charisma saves in role-play when a character says something potentially stupid to an NPC

That is not really what saves as for. See what I quoted above PHB 179.

Intelligence saves are often used to detect various illusions, which can have potentially deadly effects if used effectively.

By RAW those are all investigation checks. Phantasmal Force is the only one that I know of that has a save.

 

[redrick]

That is not really what saves as for. See what I quoted above PHB 179.


By RAW those are all investigation checks. Phantasmal Force is the only one that I know of that has a save.

I don't think my use is in opposition to what you quoted. As the PHB says, "You don't normally decide to make a saving throw; you are forced to make one because your character or a monster is at risk of harm."

An investigation, persuasion, or any other kind of check, is to determine the effectiveness of character action. The character says, "I want to ask the Queen to aid us in our quest." The DM says, "Great, give me a persuasion check." The saving throw is in response to something which has already been triggered, either by character action or some other external force. The character has stepped on something that is giving way, for instance. The saving throw is an opportunity for the character to avoid something bad happening.

In the case of "make a Charisma Save vs Foot-in-the-Mouth," the character has already done something very foolish in an interaction with an NPC. The saving throw represents a last-ditch effort on the part of the character to recover from their gaffe.

Now, if a character had proficiency in persuasion but not charisma saves, would I grant them proficiency in this situation? Probably. It doesn't really have to be so clinical and cut and dry. For me, skill check="I want to do something". Saving throw="something is happening and I would rather it not happen to me."

 

[pukunui]

Thank you : )
I also read the chapter you told me to read

No worries. I hope it helped.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

What you just described is an Intelligence ability check. You've created houserules that vastly change what saves are used for so of course your experiences differ.

Er...yes? What if I said "I let players add their Proficiency Bonus to Ability checks when I think their characters Level might play a part". Same thing...it's a "Save". This house rule for me works awesome. It helps to remove the "ability stats are all powerful" mentality, where players try and min/max stuff just to get a higher Ability stat. By introducing the possibility of adding Proficiency (re: a "level bonus"), it means that the first level 16 Int character will have less of a chance of the same class character with an Int 14, but 14 levels under his belt. Likewise, the same characters, but different classes, will have different chances; but in both cases, "experience" accounts for something (sometimes a lot!).

I don't think it "vastly" changes what they are used for...I think I'm just using Saves for other things they weren't generally intended. Like bashing someone over the head with your heavy crossbow. Can totally be done, but not what it was intended for.

^_^

Paul L. Ming