D&D 3E/3.5 Which D&D 3.5 Core Base Class is the Most Powerful (Prepared Casters Excluded)?

[airwalkrr]

The next poll may very well exclude the sorcerer (and only the sorcerer) if the current trend continues. I have always found the XP cost of the wish spell extremely limiting though (and most DMs in my experience apply the XP cost liberally). I think sorcerers can do more consistently with shadow evocation and shadow conjuration than they can with wish.

However, I personally voted for bard. A half-elf bard optimized for Diplomacy at 1st-level can achieve a Diplomacy score of +13. At 2nd-level it blossoms into +18. At 3rd-level, it becomes +22 (or +24 if scrolls/potions of eagle's splendor are readily available). You can essentially stop most battles before they begin at that point. And let's not forget fascinate, perhaps the most powerful ability in the entire game. So many players and DMs overlook it, but in the hands of a skilled player, it can be used to single-handedly alter the very nature of the campaign from a very early level unless the campaign's adversaries consist exclusively of mindless enemies. A bard min/maxed for Perform and given a reasonable budget can achieve a Perform skill of +13 at 1st-level, which gives an average save DC of 23.5 and a MINIMUM save DC of 14, which is still reasonably effective. While the sorcerer might accomplish similar things via charm person, a sorcerer min/maxed for charm person will only have a save DC of 16 (effectively 11 when used in combat or trying to convince a person to do something against his nature), which is hardly as effective; this is not to mention the limitation of charm person to humanoids while fascinate works on just about anything with a mind. Once the bard gets suggestion at 6th-level, there is practically no contest, as suggestion can be used without limit according to the RAW. Even if the DM requires the rewording of a failed suggestion, a crafty player can still manage to accomplish what he wants eventually. I have seen bards dominate a campaign using the fascinate/suggestion combo alone. If you allow certain sources outside the core rules, bards can use their music on constructs, undead and pretty much anything else so any practical advantage a sorcerer might gain from non-core rules could easily be negated.

Those are just my thoughts and observations.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Well, beyond Wish sorcerers have access to all kinds of other nice spells. And they have a lot more per day than prepared casters. To me, the only things making wizards better are having a better casting stat, a few bonus feats, and an increase in versatility. Since the PF sorcerer has actual class features, I'd take that over a wizard. Preparation is a lot of headache for not much return, in practice.

Diplomancy shenanigans are one thing, but assuming the DM enforces the rules correctly and reasonably, they're not enough to make up for a bard's other weakneses, in my opinion.

 

[TwoSix]

Sorcerer, obviously. Bards can be awesome, but core bards aren't that great, diplomancy and Glibness hijinks aside.

 

[Empirate]

Who voted Barbarian and Ranger? I can't think why you'd say Ranger, of all classes (narrow focus, and not that powerful even within that focus). Barbarian probably for pure DPR - but aren't other things needed as well if you want to be called powerful? Also, within Core/without Core reasoning?

 

[MoonSong]

I say bard, (if you play enough sorcerers you'll notice only a small subset of them have what it takes to be powerful, the rest just don't cut the bill). Both classes have about the same ability score requeriments, but except for spellcasting (and even then Bards have some pretty strong DC boosting support outside core) bards come on top almost everytime

Combat: Bards have better bab than sorcerers, and have access to better weapons. (Bow vs crossbow, Rapier vs spear)
AC: Bards can use light armor and cast, something the sorcerer has to give up precious spellcasting for.
HP: better hit dice
Skills: Bards have many more skill points and a high amount of skill efficiency, there is a reason Diplomancer is a thing.

Spells: yes sorcerers have a big amount of slots, but without lots of known spells to back them up, they are highly situational. Also something that usually is overlooked, is that sorcerers relly on their spells for AC and possibly combat. So at low levels they have low survivability. Unlike them, bards can use their spells as they wish or see fit, they don't have a "spell tax". And don't forget Bards have more chances to be good at melee thanks to access to some heal magic.

And let's not forget bardic music...

 

[Empirate]

I find it telling that 'except for spellcasting', 'bards come on top almost everytime' in your analysis. Spellcasting is the single most powerful mechanic in the game, period. You just told us that Bards may not have what it takes where real power is concerned, but they're runners-up due to secondary benefits. Which was already mentioned anyway.

The comparison of BAB, AC, and HP isn't too meaningful IMO.
The BAB only starts to differ appreciably by about level 8 or so - and by then, your Sorcerer won't worry about hitting anything much (even rays will usually connect by now), while your Bard will still need to hit stuff occasionally to contribute.
AC is a nonissue from the mid levels up, as well - if you really want to boost it, get a spell for that (Alter Self can give you +8 natural armor). Miss chance (Mirror Image or Blink) is the better way to go, and flying around invisibly is the still superior one. Also, Twilight Mithral Shirt, if you really want light armor.
HP... yeah, sure, but 1 HP/level isn't much to write home about. Your Bard should still stay out of melee most of the time. Sorcerers can get False Life if they want (but it's not that needed IMO).

Sorcerers have 'highly situational' spells? If you don't know which ones to pick, maybe. Quite a few spells have extremely broad application (Alter Self/Polymorph/Shapechange, Summon Monster X, Shadow Conjuration/Evocation, XYZ Image, etc. - and yes, these are all Core). Picking just a few of these spells leaves the Sorcerer open for other, more specialized loadout, while increasing his versatility immensely. Bards get some of these spells, but they get them later (for the most part), and can't cast them as often as the Sorcerer can. In this case, casting stamina quite often means extra flexibility, since Sorcerers normally don't have to worry about running out.

Skills at low-mid levels, and class features (Bardic Knowledge, Bardic Music) at all levels help a lot to keep the Bard relevant. As I mentioned before, in a Core-only game, there's not much benefit to be had from the latter, but skills do come in handy from time to time. UMD especially, in a Cha-based class, but also Diplomacy, as you pointed out. Outside Core, bardic music becomes very powerful.
As powerful as a well-built Sorcerer/Hathran/Incantatrix? I guess not, but then, what is? Apart from a well-built Wizard/Hathran/Incantatrix, that is...


All in all, I'm getting the vibe that you're comparing mostly very low level performance. In that case, yes, Sorcerers simply don't have enough flexibility yet. This changes by about 6th level, and after that, Sorcerers leave Bards in the dust.


Have a look at this guide by board regular [MENTION=85158]Dandu[/MENTION] (who may come across as snarky from time to time, but knows his stuff). Not only is it full of good advice, it's also occasionally funny!

 

[airwalkrr]

Well IMHO bard spellcasting in and of itself is slightly inferior to sorcerer spellcasting. However, a bard can UMD many items a sorcerer cannot (at least not as easily) and at any rate can UMD any spell-related item, giving them the ability to use scrolls, staffs, and wands quite easily and to great effect. So they are more versatile by virtue of their better UMD skill. A sorcerer can have a decent UMD with cross-class ranks, but not anywhere as great as that of the bard. A sorcerer could multiclass a level of bard or rogue to get UMD as a class skill, but that dilutes their primary caster level which for most powergaming purposes is beyond reproach. So I still give the edge to the bard. Bardic music is still the main reason (with fascinate and suggestion being the most powerful abilities), but using the assumptions of medium fantasy and standard character wealth UMD should be taken into account as well and if bardic music isn't enough to convince you, UMD should.

Overall I think they are roughly equivalent, and a sorcerer is probably going to be more powerful in the hands of an inexperienced player, so long as he gets some basic advice on spell selection. An advanced sorcerer player will expand his repertoire by taking spells that duplicate other abilities like shadow evocation, shadow conjuration, limited wish, and wish. But an advanced bard player will make full use (abuse?) of fascinate and UMD as many items as he can fit into his bag of holding so I feel the bard has more potential.

 

[n00bdragon]

Sorcerer is definitely the best of the bunch. He's a crappy wizard. How could he not be? Bard is second due to him getting cool spellcasting powers, even if they are weaker than the sorcerer. Third is the rogue... because being able to use UMD is more important than the rest of his class features put together (though some of those high level rogue talents are pretty useful too). After that the ranger and the paladin make are so feebly distant that it's not worth figuring out which one is ahead of the other. The others I don't really consider classes suitable for player characters.

 

[Dandu]

who may come across as snarky from time to time

I clearly haven't been working hard enough.

 

[Remathilis]

Rogue.

1.) Sneak Attack is basically high damage all the time if built right.
2.) High Skills = Versatility.
3.) Pretty hard to kill thanks to Dex adding to AC
4.) USE MAGIC DEVICE.

Though a sorcerer is pretty much in the same boat. If I ever do 3.5 again, I'm really considering replacing cleric and wizard with mystic and sorcerer and doing something similar with druid...