Which element could D&D stand to lose more?

[IronWolf]

But because Tolkien had elves, and D&D imitated Tolkien, and computer games imitated D&D, now people regard them as some kind of standard and think every fantasy game world's gotta have freaking elves. And dwarves. And orcs. And all the rest of the Middle-Earth menagerie. They're a blight on the genre.

And this is more of what I was driving at. That the typical D&D fantasy world has had elves since the early basic sets.

So, perhaps clarifying the section of my post you quoted to this (the change bolded):

I agree that one of the appeals of D&D is the vanilla fantasy with options for a DM to add sprinkles and modify as he or she sees fit in their world. Elves just seem to fit in a stereotypical D&D fantasy world. If a DM chooses to build a campaign world without elves, then that's cool, but I don't think removing them from the general, base assumption is good.

I was trying to refer to the D&D fantasy world, not trying to paint the literary fantasy world in one fell stroke. Though with my not specifically stating that, easily interpreted as me trying to paint that picture.

My view is also colored by my own entrance to the realm of fantasy fiction - which was primarily through Tolkien and then into gaming and then into the early Dragonlance trilogy. It wasn't until later that my horizons broadened to some other forms of fantasy fiction. For me it seems unnatural for elves to not exist in the D&D game system.

 

[Kaodi]

This is all rather academic, because I have never gotten up the courage (or the time, or group, or planned world) to run a real life D&D game, and because I do not have access to anything beyond the original three 4e rulebooks, but I was just thinking it would be interesting to run a game where classes that utilized " scientific " knowledge of the supernatural to create effects would be out... That is, magical power of any kind must be something bestowed upon you.

That would cut out arcane classes other than the warlock, possibly a primal class or two (how do barbarians and sorcerers " gain " access to primal power?), psionics, and anything else where your connection to your power source is not like some sort of trade between you and otherworldly forces.

Perhaps start in a setting where the only available race is human, at the start, because other races are considered nearly mythical, as no one has actually seen an elf or dwarf in hundreds of years, though there are stories about where they live.

Not so much " low magic " as " sinister and mysterious magic with strings attached " though.

 

[Hussar]

If it was 100% up to me, with no other restrictions? Lose them both. Lose psionics because, as Crothian said, they're a half baked tacked on concept that has never really meshed well with the core mechanics (granted 4e might be different, haven't seen them yet). Plus, they're just as bad of a fit for fantasy as computers and laser tanks (even though all three can certainly be re-speced to fit in fantasy). If you rebranded psionics as a fantasy equivalent of some sort of spirit (as in mental spirit, not the ghost type) powers, I'd probably be happy with it.

I'd eject elves (despite the fact that I'm currenly playing an eladrin) simply because virtually every elf player I've ever seen over the years plays elves as humans that can see in the dark and it irks me to no end. Dwarves get personality. Halflings get personality. Elves get to be humans. Yuck. Give them a niche and a reason to exist or stick them in the monster manual where they belong.

 

[Dausuul]

And this is more of what I was driving at. That the typical D&D fantasy world has had elves since the early basic sets. ...

I was trying to refer to the D&D fantasy world, not trying to paint the literary fantasy world in one fell stroke. Though with my not specifically stating that, easily interpreted as me trying to paint that picture.

But that's rather circular logic, isn't it? D&D has to have elves because... D&D has always had elves?

(Although I guess you could argue that because World of Warcraft and its ilk have elves, D&D should have elves in order to make it easier to pull in WoW gamers. WoW may have inherited its elves from D&D, but computer games are far more popular now than D&D ever was, and I have to admit they are a natural place to go looking for new recruits.)

Anyway, as I said above, I wouldn't excise elves entirely from the game, just from the "setting defaults." Either give them their own splatbook, or make them an optional chapter in the core set--preferably the Dungeon Master's Guide, to emphasize that it's the DM's decision whether to include them.

 

[Verdande]

I usually run mostly humanocentric campaigns, myself. Human cultures are plenty different from each other without adding some silly human analogue stereotypes.

What do non-human races add to the game by their inclusion? Is there any function that they serve other than to let people get away with their favorite stereotypes? People play elves so they can be beautiful and superior, dwarves so they can be bearded, gruff alcoholics, and halflings so they can be Bilbo Baggins. Why do we have them, still?


Psionics isn't nearly as big of a deal to me. Outside of D&D, it's usually a substitute for magic, but inside of D&D it's usually an alternate magic system that exists alongside magic. I like science fiction in my fantasy more than I like plain vanilla fantasy, so maybe I'm a bit biased.

 

[IronWolf]

But that's rather circular logic, isn't it? D&D has to have elves because... D&D has always had elves?

Possibly!

The original question is saying either Psionics or Elves have to be cut. I am assuming D&D has been around for quite some time and we are in present day being tasked with cutting one. Of the two, I think elves are one of those things people expect to be there as opposed to psionics, which I don't think as many people expect to be there. I know elves are one of the things I expect to be there as they have been there since I've been playing.

So, yeah - not necessarily sound debating logic that is going to win me a straight up debate. But sound enough to rationalize to myself why psionics gets the boot.

 

[Silvercat Moonpaw]

What do non-human races add to the game by their inclusion? Is there any function that they serve other than to let people get away with their favorite stereotypes? People play elves so they can be beautiful and superior, dwarves so they can be bearded, gruff alcoholics, and halflings so they can be Bilbo Baggins. Why do we have them, still?

Because for some people no matter what you pull out with the "human cultures are different from each other" there will be people who don't see it that way. For them they need something more.

(Personally I don't think this "something more" is D&D's default line-up, but it's better than nothing.)

 

[Desdichado]

Possibly!

The original question is saying either Psionics or Elves have to be cut. I am assuming D&D has been around for quite some time and we are in present day being tasked with cutting one. Of the two, I think elves are one of those things people expect to be there as opposed to psionics, which I don't think as many people expect to be there. I know elves are one of the things I expect to be there as they have been there since I've been playing.

So, yeah - not necessarily sound debating logic that is going to win me a straight up debate. But sound enough to rationalize to myself why psionics gets the boot.

Actually, what I was hoping to get at was merely of two things that are longstanding icons in D&D that many people don't like, which do you like least?

It's nice to see elves getting some hate, frankly. I thought the poll would be even more lopsided than it is.

 

[BrokeAndDrive]

...when did psionics become sci-fi?

 

[Ghostwind]

Put the elves in the airlock right next to the psionic monks.