Which element could D&D stand to lose more?

[FireLance]

"O psionics, psionics, wherefore art thou psionics?
Deny thy science fiction connotations and refuse thy name;
Or if thou wilt not, be but appearing in my campaign
And I'll no longer play vanilla fantasy.

...

'Tis but thy name that is my enemy:
Thou art thyself, though not a fantasy term.
What's a fantasy term? It is nor keyword nor prerequisite,
Nor benefit nor effect, nor any other part
Belonging to a game mechanic. O be some other name!
What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other word would smell as sweet;
So psionics would, were he not psionics call'd,
Retain that dear perfection which he owes
Without that title. Psionics, doff thy name,
And for thy name, which is no part of thee,
Be an element of D&D."

 

[Orius]

I'd keep 'em both.

I don't like elves. But they're a very popular race, and a lot of people like to play them. So getting rid of them would probably cause more problems than keeping them. Some people hate the Tolkien races, but in a basic D&D campaign, they're expected, and most players know how to play them. Even someone who's a noob may very well have seen the LotR movies or played WoW, and still knows how to play them.

Psionics are easier to dump because they've always been optional. I'd rather not use them as a sci-fi styled element, but flavor them like Eastern mysticism along the lines of qi or something from Indian culture. I'm creating a campaign world after all, not a campaign continent. And if those influences aren't familiar enough for the players I'll just tell them it's the Force. Kind of like a reverse of this. And don't get started on, "but it's sci-fi!" here 'cause we all know Star Wars is high fantasy IN SPACE!

 

[Jhaelen]

Psionics. After all, it just takes a sidebar labeled "different schools of arcane magic" to reintroduce them.

Elves. After all, it just takes a sidebar labeled "humanoids with pointy ears" to reintroduce them.

 

[steenan]

I voted "cut them both", but I wouldn't cut both at the same time.

I play D&D as either high fantasy or a theater of strangeness.

In high fantasy, elves are completely fine. They are a part of tolkienesque classics. Psionisc is completely out of genre (I even perceive the divide between divine and arcane a little jarring in such settings).

In Planescape or something similar I like to have psionics, as one more strange thing to explore (it also goes hand in hand with mind flayers, who I love). Elves, however, are too mundane to matter. They may be there, but it's just a waste of paper - these pages could contain modrons or similarily exotic creatures.

 

[MortalPlague]

...And now that I've read the rest of the thread, this statement is enough to make me change my mind and pick elves. Elves are NOT "vanilla fantasy," they are a very specific subgenre of epic fantasy in direct descent from Tolkien. Most original fantasy settings are devoid of elves. Conan didn't have elves. Elric didn't have elves (unless you count Melniboneans, and I wouldn't). The Wheel of Time, and the Song of Ice and Fire, and Earthsea, and Gormenghast, and the Dark Tower, and the Belgariad, and the Chronicles of Amber*, and Thomas Covenant... not one of them had elves.

You have a very good point. My introduction to fantasy at large was through Tolkien, so that's no doubt colored by viewpoint.

That said, when I talk about 'vanilla' fantasy, I talk about the default setting imagined when someone says 'fantasy'. And for most people, even people who game on a regular basis, Tolkien would be the vanilla. Mention 'fantasy', and a tavern comes to mind, populated by elves and dwarves. Orcs, dragons, and goblins come to mind. Powerful, mysterious wizards come to mind.

Conan, despite pre-dating Tolkien by a few decades, is also fantasy. But I wouldn't consider it vanilla. I really enjoyed the Conan stories, and I love to draw inspiration from them for my gaming, but as a default fantasy setting, Conan's missing too many of the classic fantasy tropes. Regardless of the fact that it pre-dated those tropes, they've still become iconic for the genre.

Wheel of Time is notable as taking fantasy and turning it on end, with an interesting take on magic (especially with regards to gender) and a predominance of humans across the world, mixed with one or two rare demi-human races. It's close to vanilla, but it brings enough new to the table to be something else. Were I to explain Wheel of Time to someone, I'd say that it's like vanilla fantasy, except for these few differences...

 

[Buttercup]

I like elves as antagonists, but never as a player race. I'd also be perfectly happy with an elf-free setting, and in fact I've done that before too.

Psionics? Meh.

I voted to ditch both of 'em. But the truth is, I don't care one way or the other what the official line is. I'm perfectly capable of creating my own setting, into which I add and subtract from the published tool kit at will.

 

[malcolypse]

psionics aren't a sci-fi element, they're a min-maxer's wet dream and add nothing of value to a game world. they're there because decades ago, they needed to put out as many books as possible to take advantage of people who would buy anything that they could use to pile more rules onto their game. you know, just like now. i have no use for them and don't allow them in any games i run.

i have a friend who swears by them. he thinks they're the best thing since sliced orcs. he uses them to make characters who have a billion and a half powers that he can use to do things that rarely have any benefit other than to make him look cool doing things that another character class could do as well or better, just with less flash and without bringing another rules set to the table.

 

[Wiseblood]

I don't like psionic so I would cut them. They seem to have been developed and balanced in a vacuum(SP).

Elves were included as a race in D&D becaus JRR had armies of them in Middle Earth. Since D&D sprang from Chainmail who was going to be the other team. Dragns came in because someone had a Godzilla toy. it wasn't much of a stretch to put in the tolkien tropes.

 

[FireLance]

psionics aren't a sci-fi element, they're a min-maxer's wet dream and add nothing of value to a game world. they're there because decades ago, they needed to put out as many books as possible to take advantage of people who would buy anything that they could use to pile more rules onto their game. you know, just like now. i have no use for them and don't allow them in any games i run.

Well, first off, according to this D&D Alumni article, the first appearance of psionics in D&D was in an appendix to the AD&D PHB, so no additional purchase was necessary. The first time that psionics appeared in a non-core supplement was the 2nd Edition Complete Psionics Handbook, which means you're one year shy of being technically correct about it happening "decades ago".

As for psionics adding nothing to a game world, that is a matter of taste, isn't it? The original AD&D implementation of psionics gave it the flavor of natural ability that rarely appeared, and was rarely powerful even when it did appear. (The reason why psionics was often considered unbalanced in its earliest implementation is probably the same reason why so many fighter and fighter sub-class characters seemed to have 18/76+ Strength.) In later editions, when psionics was tied more to class than to natural ability (although elements of wild talents were still present in 2e), psionics became just another class option that you could choose to use, or not use, as you wish.

 

[malcolypse]

we all know that technically correct is the best kind of correct.

i fully conceed that the original implementation of psionics was just a neat little thing that could be thrown in as an option and the chances of it being unbalancing to a game were pretty much nil.

the thing that it's grown into is a perversion of its original inclusion.

the rarity and quirkiness of psionics were what made them interesting, but nowadays you can't walk into a poorly lit tavern without jostling four psychic warriors and a soulknife.

i guess i don't have a problem with psionics when they're in their place. i would never consider running dark sun without psionics. anytime i'm told that anything ok'd by the dm is kosher in the game about to be run, i consider playing a thri-kreen (i have mad giant-bug-love, dunno why) and just explain if someone asks about my peoples crazy psychic powers that i was born mindblind and that is why i am more comfortable adventuring amongst the barbarians than back in a proper, bug-filled civilization.

edit: and i'm pretty sure that knee-jerk should have been hyphenated. sorry for that. :end edit