Which feats are "taxes"?

I don't find any feats a "tax" and think this is ridiculous thinking. It's a build option, nothing more. For example, if I want to play a Stormsoul Genasi Storm Sorcerer, my racial ability stat bonuses are all kinds of wrong even though the flavor is all kinds of right. The racial power of the Stormsoul Genasi essentially works as a great feat for the class, while the actual "feat" actually takes the place of a +2 stat bonus to the attack stat. This mitigates the need for a total min/max stat dump to be viable.
Not quite.
Your PC is not competing against people with better stats.
Your PC is competing against people with better stats who also take this feat (because, if allowed, it's better than almost any other feat in the game -- overwhelmingly better by 15th level).

Every character concept -- except the concept "I suck at my job" -- can benefit from performing its job better, and in 4e, all jobs involve hitting (including the job of pacifist cleric, which is actually lots of fun IMHO).

If something is so good that everyone will want to take it and the rules of the game are written with the assumption that everyone will take it, it's not much of an option any more. It's a tacit requirement. If it costs you a resource slot, it's a tacit tax.

Cheers, -- N
 

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Infact I often hear people (even people calling them taxes) say they have feats they want more then those. I know I can't for the life of me find a feat to drop on my warlord.
In fact, I want pretty much every feat before I want Expertise, because Expertise is boring. It's very effective, though. And that's why IMHO it should go away.

Things that are boring should be assumed. Things that are cool should be focused upon.

Cheers, -- N
 

In fact, I want pretty much every feat before I want Expertise, because Expertise is boring. It's very effective, though. And that's why IMHO it should go away.

Things that are boring should be assumed. Things that are cool should be focused upon.

Cheers, -- N

but you choose what is the focus...

my warlord (current level 9) has the following feats:

FEATS
Level 1: Fey Command, Improved Tactics, Tactical Inspiration, Lend Might, Tactical Assault, Eladrin Soldier

My paragon path is going to be the fey tower one, so I plan on taking a bunch of the fey step feats...
 

I pretty much agree with Nifft. I'd add the feats that grant properly scaling AC to classes with improperly scaling AC, ie, feats that grant heavy armor or new ability score bonuses to AC for characters in light armor without a favored ability score that contributes to AC. Chain for star pact warlocks or constitution based shaman, for example.

Weapon Focus and Weapon Proficiency in a Superior Weapon are close, but not quite taxes. They're pretty obvious choices that are kind of boring, though.
 

I don't find any feats a "tax" and think this is ridiculous thinking. It's a build option, nothing more. For example, if I want to play a Stormsoul Genasi Storm Sorcerer, my racial ability stat bonuses are all kinds of wrong even though the flavor is all kinds of right. The racial power of the Stormsoul Genasi essentially works as a great feat for the class, while the actual "feat" actually takes the place of a +2 stat bonus to the attack stat. This mitigates the need for a total min/max stat dump to be viable.

In the game I run, all four players are wanna-be power questers. They coordinate their builds, item choices, tactics and breakfast cereals. (And then they are dismayed when they read a thread which reveals how weak they are compared to Lord Duskblade's melee ranger who can dish out 1600 points of damage in a round.)

I think the Expertise Feats are a good feat tax on such players: they desire tactical power most of all, so they should pay for it. Other players desire cool concepts and nifty stunts: as has been demonstrated, those players do not feel compelled to buy Expertise. So it is not a universal tax, only on power questers. Of course any player can buy Expertise, but only a few will whine about its "necessity." (My players certainly wish they could have it for free. But then again they think that Toughness, Improved Initiative, Paragon Defenses, Weapon Focus, Durable, Quick Draw, et cetera are all absolutely necessary.)
 
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I think the Expertise Feats are a good feat tax on such players: they desire tactical power most of all, so they should pay for it. Other players desire cool concepts and nifty stunts: as has been demonstrated, those players do not feel compelled to buy Expertise. So it is not a universal tax, only on power questers.

QFT... most people who call them taxes are the people who use spreadsheets and math to 'prove' how effective there characters are. I understand that for online comparason (aka we can't see the game itself) DPR and the like are the easiest way to compair, but realistlicly noone does 'avrage'.

If I have a +9 to hit for 1d8+7 damage
and
Joe has +7 to hit for 1d12+8 (high crit) damage

DPR says I am doing better, but if I spend 3 seesions straight missing 90+% of the time I don't feel 'more powerful' now do I? Especialy if Joe crit 4 times last night...
 

Hmm. Maybe instead of calling these feats taxes, we should call the miserable feeling of blaming everyone else around you for powergaming when their characters are consistently better than yours a "tax" on not understanding math enough to take a feat that gives you +2 to your attack rolls at level 15, or a feat that corrects your AC growth curve and grants you between 3 and 6 more points of AC, plus the ability to allocate your ability scores more intentionally.

The whole problem with these feats are that they're not esoteric, unusual choices selected only by powergamers who carefully analyze the system in order to exploit it. They're boring, bland, yet incredibly powerful options presented directly to even the neweist of players, and which players would be foolish not to select.
 

Not quite.
Your PC is not competing against people with better stats.
Your PC is competing against people with better stats who also take this feat (because, if allowed, it's better than almost any other feat in the game -- overwhelmingly better by 15th level).
really I thought PCs didn't compet with eachother at all, but against static monster defences...


Every character concept -- except the concept "I suck at my job" -- can benefit from performing its job better, and in 4e, all jobs involve hitting (including the job of pacifist cleric, which is actually lots of fun IMHO).
Really what if (more then once in real games I have seen this) thw leader is all about granting bonuses and extra attacks, he doesn't need the feat himself as much as other feats that add more to that subset, and if the rest of the party is hitting often, then why improve something you don't need to?


In the on again off again mod game I run (Started the week phb1 came out) we are running each mod h1-e3 as the come (just about to start epic) and we have a warlod/Battle captian that gives bonuses to hit out like crazy...infact I have often had the fighter and rouge sit there and go 'not a 1, not a 1, not a 1' for there attacks. we all laugh at the avenger player (he started with a 20 wis, has expertise, and a +3 prof weapon, he always goes for combat advantage) becuse several times he has gotten himself to where he needs to roll negative numbers to hit...yet he still obsessies about his rolls)

He has a 26 wis, he has a magic item that gives +1 to hit with psycic attacks, and a great sword that does psi damage, he has expertise, so even base he has a + 30 to hit. avrage monsters have AC level +14 so a level 20 monster he needs to roll a 4...then keep in mind +2 CA, +2 first round or suprise round, +7 (4 from warlord 3 from action surge) if he action points, and more if the battle captian heals him, or has a buff power going...

One fight last month had him complain about not having combat advantage (a PC chose not to flank for him) and he 'only' had +45 Vs AC...by the way the target was from P3 a magot lich with a 35 AC... he needed to roll a -10 on 2d20 take the highest...
 

Aside from Expertise we have the: Epic Fortitude, Epic Reflexes, Epic Will, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Paragon Defenses, Robust Defenses taxes. I'd go so far as to call Armor Spec a tax, because AC is part of the game's math glitch too and the Armor Spec bonus applies about 99% of the game. I know I'm going to get flack for that one, but the only reason Armor Spec doesn't play a part in 99% of paragon PCs is because of its Con prereqs.

Also, I haven't been keeping up with all the recent splats so more taxes have likely crept in. So I'll say this: anything that grants an unconditional bonus to attacks or defenses is a tax. *sigh* You'd think WotC would just errata the math glitch.
 

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