Which feats are "taxes"?

[GMforPowergamers]

I'll say this: anything that grants an unconditional bonus to attacks or defenses is a tax. *sigh* You'd think WotC would just errata the math glitch.

can you atleast add a IMO...to that?

I mean really, some people like to just add things and be done, others like 'cool' options, still others like a mix. Somepeople feel +100 to hit is not enough, others think +22 is enough.

These feats are IF YOU WANT THEM...no one forces you to 'pay' this 'tax'

and if the so called math glitch really exsisted then epic 4e would have been unplaybel until phb2...witch we know was not the case.

 

[Akaiku]

and if the so called math glitch really exsisted then epic 4e would have been unplaybel until phb2...witch we know was not the case.

can you atleast add a IMO...to that?

Mathematically lowering the chance of things working as you get better is considered bad to a decent group of people. Also, with a living, breathing gm behind all the enemies, 'unplayable' doesn't exist, as he/she can always make the enemies harder or eaiser if your party is metal or fail.

Nearly every persistent hit bonus someone can get from a power requires someone hitting with the power. The irony is, if you can hit, you didn't need a bonus to hit.

Plus, a fair amount of leaders don't provide attack bonuses. Do they not count as leaders, as since you are loosing ground on actually hitting cause of the math 'glitch' and can't make it up with better powers to add in +1/2/3 to every attack and every non-ac defense? For every attack dealt in the game?

Similarly, might I see the leader build that CAN pull that?

 

[jbear]

Having read several discussions about the expertise feats and the house rule implementation of giving this feat to players for free, combined with the fact I want my groups combats to go faster, I decided to make this feat a game reward that the players received after accepting the blessing of Zehir. It will work like a geas in a way. the deal made required accepting an unnamed future task in his service. I guess everyone loves a +1 scaling bonus to their attacks. But this way it seemed less boring, less mechanical, and less like a tax.

I'm happy with it, they're happy with it (although a bit worried about what they've got themselves into) and hopefully it will make the math a bit more sound, help to ease the grind.

 

[Wik]

and if the so called math glitch really exsisted then epic 4e would have been unplaybel until phb2...witch we know was not the case.

You know, when we started play, the warlock missed every attack. Literally, he hit maybe one round out of four. And we were running standard, "by the book" encounters. He had a decent stat (17, I believe), and was doing everything he could. But a +3 to hit modifier at 1st level is brutal. Even if you're gunning against a non-AC defence (which is lower by 2 than AC, on average).

The warlord had the same problem. a +6 bonus, factoring in his weapon modifier, and he was still missing. Not a whole lot of fun.

Just because a game has a math glitch, it does not make it "unplaybel" ( ).

I mean, look at RIFTS. That game is filled with glitches. People still buy it. Earthdawn had one with die codes (where, at some point in the game, your chance of success actually DROPPED slightly as you improved a skill).

There's also the fact that static bonuses such as expertise and paragon defences introduces an "Arms race" element to the game. If you want to compete with the rest of your companions, you need to "pay the tax".

And you better compete. If your group averages a certain to hit number, and a certain damage, you can bet any GM worth his salt is going to up the challenge to hit that party average. If you don't "pay the tax", you're essentially stuck missing a lot more than your companions. And let's be honest - there is an element of competition between players. Sure, you help each other out, and you feel good when Bob scores that critical hit. But nobody likes feeling they're slowing down the game, or not contributing enough to the team element. And if you're missing most of the time because your numbers aren't as high as everyone else's... that can make the game less fun.

These races become self-defeating: you spend a limited resource (feat slots) for a bonus to improve your hitting. The GM notices that monster defences are too low, so he throws in harder-to-hit monsters. You are now back to where you started, and you spent a feat to get there.

 

[Dice4Hire]

Threads like this really annoy me.

Yes, if optimization is the way to make characters, and the only way, then, yes, they are feat taxes, because you should get extra power for free, shouldn't you? Have DMs hand out the bonuses at the appropriate levels, and let the characters have their cake and eat it too, by taking more feats that allow them more power.

4E is already heavily weighted in the hero's favor, why not make it more so? Who needs a 10 to hit, when you can hit with a 4?

 

[Akaiku]

4E is already heavily weighted in the hero's favor, why not make it more so? Who needs a 10 to hit, when you can hit with a 4?

It's actually close to that at epic tier if in the first case, the taclord before you missed with lead the attack cause he didn't have the +3 from experties, and neither do you, compared to the second where he hit.

Plus, it's negligent to not try to be more survivable if you are going into hostile situations. It's just weird that a pc wouldn't devote his training time to better being able to not die.

 

[Wik]

Threads like this really annoy me.

Yes, if optimization is the way to make characters, and the only way, then, yes, they are feat taxes, because you should get extra power for free, shouldn't you? Have DMs hand out the bonuses at the appropriate levels, and let the characters have their cake and eat it too, by taking more feats that allow them more power.

4E is already heavily weighted in the hero's favor, why not make it more so? Who needs a 10 to hit, when you can hit with a 4?

You're missing the point.

It's not about whether or not the game should be more in the hero's favour or not. It's about the fact that there are some feats that are just "no-brainers".

Which goes against the point of feats in the first place - they are there to specialize your character, or to add flavour. To make my human artful dodger rogue different from your human artful dodger rogue.

The problem is, too many feats now are written to compensate for errors in the game's math. Meaning, at 4th level, both of our human artful dodger rogues will have the same feats: Light Blade Expertise, Backstabber, Weapon Focus (Light Blade), and maybe Distant Advantage. The first two are going to be taken by almost every rogue (And you'd be silly not to take them); the last two are definitely most likely choices.

Personally, I'd rather the system lacked "obvious" choices, and instead allowed players to select feats to emphasize certain qualities - moving through a battle, for example, or skill use.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Similarly, might I see the leader build that CAN pull that?

ok, I did this in the last two enworld threads on the subject much better (I sat with the compaindum on bard, cleric, and warlord for a few hours and found every power...

How ever I will quickly go over it here again...

right at 1st level you can have leading the attack (even on a miss grant +1 to hit), and Warlords favor, and your action point aura...

at paragon battle captian gives everyone a +2 for the first and suprise round of all fights...and if you spend an action point (the warlord that is) you give everyone +2 more to hit...and at 16th level you can when you use inspireing word grant your Int mod to hit.

I know eaither leading or wf has a high paragon replacement that is better in every way, but I think one of them doesn't up grade at all.


So that is how he can give massive to hit bonuses (Avenger in prev post was healed, in the first round, and action pointed...)

again this is NOT the only way to play, but it is the easiest to break down by numbers.

 

[Herschel]

Not quite.
Your PC is not competing against people with better stats.
Your PC is competing against people with better stats who also take this feat (because, if allowed, it's better than almost any other feat in the game -- overwhelmingly better by 15th level).

Every character concept -- except the concept "I suck at my job" -- can benefit from performing its job better, and in 4e, all jobs involve hitting (including the job of pacifist cleric, which is actually lots of fun IMHO).

If something is so good that everyone will want to take it and the rules of the game are written with the assumption that everyone will take it, it's not much of an option any more. It's a tacit requirement. If it costs you a resource slot, it's a tacit tax.

Cheers, -- N

Three instances where your argument breaks down:

1: There's no reason you HAVE to take one. As others have pointed out, characters are perfectly playable without them.

2. You are also looking at things in a vacuum. See my Stormsoul Genasi Sorcerer. That racial power is essentially an awesome feat, and the feat basically becomes a racial power. Once an encounter, it adds 1d8 to any lightning or thunder power used. One level 1 encounter pinning bolt, it becomes 2d6+1d8+Charisma damage, and that's almost the worst use of the power. Level 1 daily Howling Tempest is the same damage as above, but in a burst 1. Shocking Magnetism becomes 3d6+1d8+Cha damage to two creatures at range. Encounter 3 Thundering Gust is a Close Blast 3 1d10+1d8+Cha. And these powers also have riders.

These are just the first few examples I saw in Arcane Power.

3. As others have pointed out, there are many times better feats to take for a character. I like accuracy as much as teh next person, maybe more than most, but it works well hitting things without these feats. You don't NEED them, they're just an option to up your accuracy.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Somepeople feel +100 to hit is not enough, others think +22 is enough.

At that point, they're playing totally different games. Unless of course the base range has something like a thousand possibilities.

These feats are IF YOU WANT THEM...no one forces you to 'pay' this 'tax'

That's just a laughable argument. I don't have to pay real taxes either, if I really really don't want to. I could write DECEASED on my next tax form and send it in, I could close my bank accounts, take myself off the grid and give up any future benefits of being a citizen. But the benefits of paying my taxes far outweigh the benefits of not paying them, and that's the point.

Real taxes are a necessary burden of real life, but feat taxes are a totally unnecessary glitch of a game which we have much more control over. It's amazing how players will argue in favor of feat taxes, but I guess it's the caster syndrome of previous editions in a different guise: some players just want their PCs to be better and better, regardless of the fun it may be taking away from other players.