Which feats are "taxes"?

[Crothian]

It's not about whether or not the game should be more in the hero's favour or not. It's about the fact that there are some feats that are just "no-brainers"..

I think the point is they are not no brainers. Not everyone agrees the math doesn't work or that these are essential to the game. Now it could be that for a certain sect of 4e gamers consider these no brainers and all that, but there are many style of play and not all of them get hung up on the numbers.

 

[Wik]

3. As others have pointed out, there are many times better feats to take for a character. I like accuracy as much as teh next person, maybe more than most, but it works well hitting things without these feats. You don't NEED them, they're just an option to up your accuracy.

Of course you don't NEED them. But, they're probably a good idea.

If you're a striker that doesn't, you know, strike, you're going to lag behind.

And those damage plusses you have are great. Absolutely. But how would you feel if you only hit about, say, one third of the time?

The fact is, improving your accuracy greatly improves your playability. Anecdotally, I can see this at my table - the three PCs that have expertise hit more often (and hit harder) than the two that do not.

Our fighter and bard (who both have expertise and some damage-boosting feats) BOTH deal more damage on average than the rogue that did not "pay the taxes".

 

[Cadfan]

I think the point is they are not no brainers. Not everyone agrees the math doesn't work or that these are essential to the game. Now it could be that for a certain sect of 4e gamers consider these no brainers and all that, but there are many style of play and not all of them get hung up on the numbers.

But all styles are affected by the numbers. And unfortunately people who boldly declare that feats like Expertise aren't really necessary tend to also be people who make incorrect statements about the usefulness of Expertise, which makes me think that this is less of a gap between people of different styles, and more of a gap between people who really understand the math and people who don't.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

I'm amused that some people here feel that, if they ignore a problem really really hard, it'll simply vanish and go away, and nobody will ever have to deal with it again. What a wonderful, magical universe that has to be.

Unfortunately, for those of us on Earth, when a feat is so useful that you feel mandated to take it due to the underlying math having a chip in it, then yes, that's a feat tax. It takes away one of your feats in order to keep the system working.

This isn't about power gaming, and good christ throwing around the word like this makes you look foolish. It's about understanding basic math and seeing that patching a flaw with a feat is a bad idea.

 

[Herschel]

Of course you don't NEED them. But, they're probably a good idea.

It really depends on your build. Power Attack is also a viable choice for some characters.

Heck, Toughness and Durable are "probably a good idea too", so do you boost every character's HP by 5 and their surges by 2?

 

[Byronic]

These threads always make me wonder how people do it in other systems like Savage World or World of Darkness. I used to be a member of Nocturnis (WoD forum) and I don't think we ever really complained about an extra 5% to hit. Maybe it's because their less combat based then DnD.

In any case, I've played a Warlock and a Avenger. I wouldn't know from memory but I believe the Avenger had +2-3 extra to hit (once you've calculated his Oath of Enmity) compared to the Warlock.

And I have to say, that made a huge difference. The thing about Expertise is that you have to take it, not because you're a power gamer but because you want to hit the enemy more often. Not just because it's more fun but because it also makes the fight shorter so you can loot the bodies and get on with the story.

And that's why it's so necessary, whether you're a power gamer or not. For people who don't believe it's a feat tax, think about this. When you're fighting an encounter, would you rather make it a bit shorter? Also, do you believe your character should truly get better as he progresses? Because mathematically you might find it harder and harder to hit the enemies while you're levelling.

Anyway, not telling you to change your mind, but do think about these factors when making it up.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I'm amused that some people here feel that, if they ignore a problem really really hard, it'll simply vanish and go away, and nobody will ever have to deal with it again. What a wonderful, magical universe that has to be.

wow can you get more dismissive of others thoughts and ideas?

This isn't about power gaming, and good christ throwing around the word like this makes you look foolish. It's about understanding basic math and seeing that patching a flaw with a feat is a bad idea.

oh wait yes you can...
but don't worry cadfan beats even that

But all styles are affected by the numbers. And unfortunately people who boldly declare that feats like Expertise aren't really necessary tend to also be people who make incorrect statements about the usefulness of Expertise, which makes me think that this is less of a gap between people of different styles, and more of a gap between people who really understand the math and people who don't.

WOW,

so we are bad at math, and look foolish, and belive in the problem we claim doesn't exsit, but hope to ignore it...



OK lets try this again...SOME PEOPLE HAVE PLAYED FROM LEVEL 1 TO LEVEL 30 WITHOUT THESE PATCH FEATS...until you explain why these patch feats are not universaly needed (AKA it works without them) and SOME PEOPLE MAKE EFFECTIVE CHARACHTERS WITHOUT THEM...
Lets really look at these 'tax' feats

Aside from Expertise we have the: Epic Fortitude, Epic Reflexes, Epic Will, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Paragon Defenses, Robust Defenses taxes.

It looks to me like anything that makes you better is mandatory...so I want Improved intative too, and skill focus, and multi class feat. I bet I could start a movement to give every PC a free multi class feat to 'balance' the game and people would agree...guess why, becuse it is ALWAYS better to have MORE instead of LESS...


all feats are choices, if you feel YOU must have a feat do not assume EVERYONE needs or even wants the feat.

I want to cry becuse some how even here at enworld this becomes (Becuse we said so) nothing more then argueing. No one looks at anyone else view.

Yes at level one you need X to hit on avrage...and at level 30 it is higher...but there are unmathable (is that a word) parts of this equastion...

You start play with 1 encounter and 1 daily...you end play with 4 of each(or more for some builds)...you hav 15 more feats, more magic items...your Power is MASSIVLY higher.

at paragon levels there are multi ways to have miss damage, or seconddary effects...magic items...PP features, at epic you get more...

the math however is always X+ VS AC, but never takes greater miss, more options into the eqations

 

[Theroc]

This is anecdotal, but I believe Enworld's Living 4th and Living Eberron(which is also 4th edition) both houseruled those feats in as innate bonuses interspersed in each tier, and then banning the feat.

Living 4th begins at level 1, and Living Eberron allows a player to begin between levels 1 and 4(inclusive). Whether or not they have a major impact or not is something I can't state, but it might be something for those who feel more invested in the topic than I to look into. Both have had several adventures completed, if I remember correctly, but Living 4th is a larger segment.

 

[Cadfan]

wow can you get more dismissive of others thoughts and ideas?

oh wait yes you can...
but don't worry cadfan beats even that

Sorry, but... yeah. I mean, you were even the source for the earlier comments in post 17. I don't think you quite get the disparity that arises between players who take Expertise and maybe a superior weapon, and those who don't.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

OK lets try this again...SOME PEOPLE HAVE PLAYED FROM LEVEL 1 TO LEVEL 30 WITHOUT THESE PATCH FEATS...until you explain why these patch feats are not universaly needed (AKA it works without them) and SOME PEOPLE MAKE EFFECTIVE CHARACHTERS WITHOUT THEM...

Good for those players. The rest of us still know these options as feat taxes, we still don't like them, and therefore their existence still infringes upon our fun. Why can't you see our point of view?

It looks to me like anything that makes you better is mandatory...so I want Improved intative too, and skill focus, and multi class feat. I bet I could start a movement to give every PC a free multi class feat to 'balance' the game and people would agree...guess why, becuse it is ALWAYS better to have MORE instead of LESS...

Well gee golly, GMfPG, if we're going to debate this by putting words into each other's mouths...

Stop saying that the RAW is perfect exactly as written! You're such a fanboy! Stop calling me a communist for wanting PCs to be roughly equal in power! And don't call me un-American because I house rule my D&D!

...I hope you're rolling your eyes at that, because I'm sure rolling my eyes at what you put in my mouth. Read what I wrote again, slowly, reply seriously this time and I'll give you a serious reply.