Which non-core monsters should have been core?

Bullgrit · Dec 2, 2005

Just a random question, here: Why was the catablepus' (spelling?) death gaze changed to a death ray?

If Monsters of Faerun was supposed to be a "core" book, why is it called "Monsters of Faerun"? (I'm not being snarky -- I'm honestly puzzled.)

Bullgrit

jasper · Dec 2, 2005

brownie

Garnfellow · Dec 2, 2005

Bullgrit said:
If Monsters of Faerun was supposed to be a "core" book, why is it called "Monsters of Faerun"? (I'm not being snarky -- I'm honestly puzzled.)

I think it's a fair thing to ask, and to me, your question suggests a main reason why this book is so unsatisfactory. I know it was frequently billed as a core book, but with Faerun on the cover and the occasional Realms reference, it never really felt like a generic sourcebook.

And on the other hand, it never provided enough detail on Realms specific stuff to feel like a deep, immersive Faerun supplement. It's like the designers tried to write for two disparate groups and managed to please neither.

Mouseferatu · Dec 2, 2005

Bullgrit said:
Just a random question, here: Why was the catablepus' (spelling?) death gaze changed to a death ray?

If Monsters of Faerun was supposed to be a "core" book, why is it called "Monsters of Faerun"? (I'm not being snarky -- I'm honestly puzzled.)

Bullgrit

For the same reason Races of Eberron was a core book.

Imret · Dec 2, 2005

Many of them have already been said, but my first thought after pawing through the 3.0 MM part-way was, "Where's my banshee!?". This was quickly followed by, "What? NO 'loths at all!?!?"

Other than that, I'd say the MotP genies, catoblepas, the original water weird, hook horrors, death knights, linnorms, neogi, and dracoliches.

seankreynolds · Dec 3, 2005

JoeGKushner said:
Drow woudl be the first ones I'd think of.

Yes, but nobody is claiming drow are exclusive to FR ... drow are in the 3E MM, after all.

Let's try this again:

Originally Posted by BWP:

Pretty much any of the critters in the Forgotten Realms books that used to be in the 1st ed. "core" monster books. I never understood why a lot of "core" creatures suddenly got dumped into FR as their "home" when 2e was published; 3e should have put them right back where they came from.

And I said:

Uh, such as? Many of the creatures in the 2E MM first appeared in FR products: the dracolich, the beholder variants, etc. Nowadays most people think FR "stole" those creatures, but they originated in FR.

Some people here are suggesting that FR "stole" monsters from the core, pointing out that these "stolen" monsters were in the 2E MM but now appear in FR products. I'm pointing out that many of the monsters appearing in the 2E MM actually originated in FR in the first place and were put in the 2E MM as "generic" monsters, so any suggestions that those monsters are "stolen" when they appear in 3E FR products instead of 3E core products is absurd (like claiming that the elves, dwarves, orcs, and ents in the LotR movies are derivative of D&D, when they actually come from the LotR books which heavily influenced the D&D game).

* Bullywugs aren't FR-specific creatures, so their presence in the 2E MM or in Monsters of Faerun is irrelevant.
* Shadow dragons are FR creatures (I'm pretty sure they were created by Ed Greenwood but I can't find the book they originally appeared in), ended up in the 2E MM, then appeared in MoF. Not "stolen."
* Deep dragon? FR, from Drow of the Underdark.
* Wild dwarf? Deepspawn? FR, from Dwarves Deep.
* Illithid lich? FR, from Menzoberranzan.
* Electrum dragon? Bone naga? Ormyrr? Doomsphere/ghost beholder? FR, from Ruins of Myth Drannor

Bullgrit said:
Just a random question, here: Why was the catablepus' (spelling?) death gaze changed to a death ray?

No idea, I had nothing to do with the book that creature appears in.

If Monsters of Faerun was supposed to be a "core" book, why is it called "Monsters of Faerun"? (I'm not being snarky -- I'm honestly puzzled.)

Because core books sell better than world-branded books of the same type.
Because most of the monsters in there are core monsters rather than FR monsters.
But there are a lot of FR monsters in it that people are used to using as core monsters because they appeared in the 2E MM.
Because we wanted FR gamers to know it's a book they should pick up, but didn't want to put an FR logo on it so non-FR people wouldn't pick it up "because I can't use an FR book.

Garnfellow said:
I think it's a fair thing to ask, and to me, your question suggests a main reason why this book is so unsatisfactory. I know it was frequently billed as a core book, but with Faerun on the cover and the occasional Realms reference, it never really felt like a generic sourcebook.

I am surprised that the one-paragraph for each monster on "In the Realms" was enough to distract you from its utility as a generic sourcebook. If it helps, cover up the FR-specific text with liquid paper.

And on the other hand, it never provided enough detail on Realms specific stuff to feel like a deep, immersive Faerun supplement.

Barring an annoying 2E-style sourcebook where you spend pages of ecology on a single monster, you really shouldn't be spending that much space on a single monster in a monster-collection book. The goal of the new 3E books was to give you books you can game with, not books that are great to read for flavor and then you put them on the shelf and never use them again. With that in mind, one paragraph per monster explaining specific FR issues and uses is not unreasonable and sufficient for most DMs' purposes.

RichGreen · Dec 3, 2005

Ixitxachitl (and all of the others in the 1e MM!)

Cheers

Richard

diaglo · Dec 3, 2005

seankreynolds said:
* Bullywugs aren't FR-specific creatures, so their presence in the 2E MM or in Monsters of Faerun is irrelevant.
* Shadow dragons are FR creatures (I'm pretty sure they were created by Ed Greenwood but I can't find the book they originally appeared in), ended up in the 2E MM, then appeared in MoF. Not "stolen."
* Deep dragon? FR, from Drow of the Underdark.
* Wild dwarf? Deepspawn? FR, from Dwarves Deep.
* Illithid lich? FR, from Menzoberranzan.
* Electrum dragon? Bone naga? Ormyrr? Doomsphere/ghost beholder? FR, from Ruins of Myth Drannor

i believe the shadow dragon appeared in the MM2 for 1edADnD and was in a module before then. it appeared in greyhawk against the giants for 2edADnD too. but the first appearance in the realms i remember reading.. which may not be chronologically correct... was in a Salvatore novel. the one where Bruenor dies or at least appears to die but that was years after the 1edADnD MM2.

the electrum dragon i remember seeing in The Dragon

but my memory is pretty shotty.

Psion · Dec 3, 2005

seankreynolds said:
* Shadow dragons are FR creatures (I'm pretty sure they were created by Ed Greenwood but I can't find the book they originally appeared in), ended up in the 2E MM, then appeared in MoF. Not "stolen."

Shadow Dragons were in non-FR creatures in 1e.

Anyways, other that that, I disagree with BWP (It was dragonlance that was the main offender in the 2e era...) and agree with Diaglo. I have a hard time accepting that MoF is not an FR book when it has "Faerun" right on the cover. More telling, however, is the failure to re-use many creatures from MoF in non-FR books subsequently. Happily, Genasi seem to have been carried foreward elsewhere, but we still have yet to see updated treatment or featuring of creatures like Abishai and Shadow Dragons out there, instead being deluged with new creatures that (personal nit or not) don't do near as much to capture my imagination as these old favorites.