Which Prc for the Paladin?

[Bauglir]

Here's something I've been thinking about.

How many of the paladin's spells are actually any use, when you're travelling with a party that includes a cleric? Most of your spells are buffs that can be covered by the cleric as needed. (Pearls of Power come in handy here) In fact only one spell on the paladin spell list to me really seems to stand out (Holy Sword).

The thing is, Holy Sword, being only a 4th level spell can obtained through a wand, for not all that much money to a high level character, and afaik even an 8 Wis paladin could use this wand. So given that the effects can be replicated through a few inexpensive magic items, are the Paladin's spells really all that important?

 

[Darklone]

Divine Favour. No matter what caster level... we once had a hitlist how often that single point of bards song, buff spells like bless or prayer saved more than one character... we gave it up.

Protection from evil is always nice. Bless Weapon depends on the interpretation of the DM... Endure Elements used to be better...

You can never have enough Lesser Restorations
(Edit: Especially now with the necro fatigue spells)

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I'd have an ancient (Lawful) Empire holding stand against the forces of chaos, against the inevitable encroaching madness and destruction. This Empire would not hesitate to use devils, inevitables and other implements of Law. The monsters described in the MM are just tools. With the paladins arguing for the release of all the bonded slaves, and arguing against the use of devils, to the deaf ears of the Emperor, who is almost without hope.

I think your example rather demonstrates my point. That is not as easy a campaign to run as a standard Good vs. Evil one, IMHO. I have no doubt it would be fun, but you and your players better do your homework or there with be IC and OOC clashes over "little" things like whether the ends justifies the means.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

The Paladin's Will save may be lower!? Suuure...

In higher levels saves are about the most important defensive ability.

Do the math.

6th level Barbarian: 2 + 2 (14 Wis) + 2 (Iron Will) + 2 (Rage) = +8
6th level Paladin: 2 + 1 (12 Wis) + 4 (18 Cha) = +7

 

[The Souljourner]

Here's the thing - good and evil define the goals, law and chaos define how you achieve those goals.

A campaign based on people who work in similar ways towards completely different goals will never work out. Players must have a common goal, then they can decide how they work towards that goal amongst themselves.

-The Souljourner

 

[green slime]

I think your example rather demonstrates my point. That is not as easy a campaign to run as a standard Good vs. Evil one, IMHO. I have no doubt it would be fun, but you and your players better do your homework or there with be IC and OOC clashes over "little" things like whether the ends justifies the means.

Oh yes I've done all that already I have a "little" document with around 80 pages+ describing the world to the players. The section on morality and changes to some spells is outlined in two or three pages.

Given that this alignment system has been prevalent in the DnD for nigh 20(+?) years, it is rather strange that not more exists for this kind of campaign. Especially considering that it would seem Moorcock's Elric at least to some degree inspired the inclusion of the Law-Chaos axis. Basic was just a rather simplistic Evil vs Good, which left little room for ambiguity (IMO).

The real question being, why isn't this done in the PHB/DMG? It is just a much a typical fantasy novel point of conflict as Evil vs Good. What is the name of the Bad dude in Wheel of Time? Lord of Chaos, IIRC. It would not have required too much more effort to actually include spells with [chaos] and [law] designators, or add them to present spells (which is what I have attempted to do). People would still have ignored these at their own behest as they do today with much of the [Evil]/[Good] descriptors. And then we whom wanted them would be pleased and satisfied customers. But it appears that I am alone, so perhaps that is the answer.

BTW, people still manage to argue over those "little" things anyway, just look at those alignment/paladin/orc-baby slaying threads. IMO, it is just because the alignment system is left very much undefined and open to individual interpretation. In a system that is supposed to be absolute, it provides remarkably few guidelines. I guess it is a good way to avoid controversy.

 

[green slime]

Here's the thing - good and evil define the goals, law and chaos define how you achieve those goals.

A campaign based on people who work in similar ways towards completely different goals will never work out. Players must have a common goal, then they can decide how they work towards that goal amongst themselves.

-The Souljourner

I respectfully disagree. Although I can see how such a view may be valid for you, for me Law tries to maintain a statis quo or increase the amount of order in the multiverse, whereas Chaos strives for change (both renewal and decay)

They are goals, are they not? They may differ from player goals, which can be any they personally choose for themselves, with their collection of agendas and alliances. This does not necessarily change the back drop for the campaign, which will require the heroes to choose sides, on occassion. Perhaps they alternate between sides in the conflict, that is their choice.

 

[Lamoni]

I just wanted to add my 2 cents.

Cent number 1: I agree that there are no good Paladin Prestige Classes. Almost all of the prestige classes in DotF are better suited for Clerics who lose less and gain more. So I'll have to look at making my own. I would give up spellcasting for a few more feats.

Cent number 2: A Paladin's spellcasting is the weakest part of the class IMO. That is why a good houserule for us is to ignore the Paladin's caster level is half rule in the Paladin spell descriptions. It remains true for anything else. That way divine favor and Magic Weapon, greater are actually useful. And heal mount at 12th level allows you to heal 120 HP's instead of only 60. It also extends the duration of several other spells. It doesn't overpower the Paladin at all, it only makes some of the spells worthwhile. Otherwise it would take a 16th level Paladin to give a +2 bonus with Magic Weapon, Greater. And it would take an 18th level Paladin to get a +3 bonus from divine favor.

It is a big enough penalty for the Paladin to have a limited spell list and to reveive the same spells later than the Cleric. No need to make the spells completely useless at the same time.

 

[Ketjak]

Mithril Knight PrC

OK, this one's more powerful than I thought.

Mithril Knight
From OGC found in Mithril: City of the Golem by Sword & Sorcery Studios.

Hit Die: d10

Requirements
BAB: +6
AL: Lawful Good
Feats: Weapon Focus (longsword) (One might consider "Craft Magic Arms & Armor" as a requirement, too. See below.)
Craft (weaponsmithing): 8 ranks
Diplomacy: 5 ranks
Knowledge (religion): 5 ranks
Special: Smite evil.
Special: must be ordained through the use of a true ritual (see Relics & Rituals) cast by clerics of the good god of war and warcrafting. (That's Corean in the Scarred Lands.)


Class skills
Concentration, Craft (), Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (geography, history, local, nobility & royalty, religion), Profession, Ride.
Skill Points per level: 2 + INT modifier


Level BAB . FORT . REF . WILL . Special Abilities
1 .... +1 . +2 ... +0 .. +0 ... Lay on hands, smite evil, turn undead, spells, mount
2 .... +2 . +3 ... +0 .. +0 ... Craft Magic Arms & Armor level bonus
3 .... +3 . +3 ... +1 .. +1 ... Leadership, smite evil 2/day
4 .... +4 . +4 ... +1 .. +1 ... Turn outsiders
5 .... +5 . +4 ... +1 .. +1 ... Mithril sword
6 .... +6 . +5 ... +2 .. +2 ... Smite evil 3/day
7 .... +7 . +5 ... +2 .. +2 ... Righteous aura
8 .... +8 . +6 ... +2 .. +2 ... Turn titanspawn
9 .... +9 . +6 ... +3 .. +3 ... Smite evil 4/day
10 .. +10 . +7 ... +3 .. +3 ... Turn evil


Class Features
Code of conduct: Identical to a Paladins and the Mithril Knight must swear an oath to aid other members of the Order of Mithril and keep titanspawn away from the city of Mithril. (The second clause is not clearly defined, as there is no "titanspawn" descriptor in any Scarred Lands monsters. Instead, it's included in the non-OGC fluff for each monster in the Creature Collections; the various other monster sources, core and otherwise, are left to the DM to define. Presumably monstrous humanoids, goblinoids, orcs, gnolls, and giants are titanspawn, as are other nasty critters.)

Associates: as Paladin.

Exclusivity: If a Mithril Knight takes additional levels in anything but Mithril Knight or Paladin, he is unable to advance as a Mithril Knight.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Simple & Martial Weapons; Light, Medium, and Heavy armor; shields.

Lay on hands: as Paladin, effective level = Paladin + Mithril Knight.

Mount: as Paladin, effective level = Paladin + Mithril Knight.

Spell & ability effects: as Paladin, effective level = Paladin + Mithril Knight.

Smite Evil: as Paladin, effective level = Paladin + Mithril Knight. In addition, the Mithril Knight has two uses per day at 3rd level, three at 6th, and four at 9th.

Turn: as Paladin, add Mithril Knight levels to effective level. Additionally, the Mithril Knight can turn evil outsiders at 4th level, titanspawn races at 8th level, and anything evil that doesn't have more HD than half the Mithril Knight's turning level at 10th level.

Spells: advance as Paladin of Paladin + Mithril Knight levels. Use the Paladin spell list from Relics & Rituals.

Craft Magic Arms & Armor bonus levels: The Mithril Knight doesn't get this feat for free, but at 2nd level the Mithril Knight's Knight and Paladin levels are counted fully instead of half for the purpose of enchanting items.

Leadership: Mithril Knights receive this feat at 3rd level.

Mithril Holy Sword: at 5th level, the Mithril Knight is given mithril by the Order. This mithril must be forged into a sword by the Mithril Knight. Making the sword costs no XP. The sword is powered by the Knight's god. The sword only works for the Mithril Knight and people who know the Knight well and can make a DC 35 Use Magic Device check.

Mithril Sword abilities
Mithril
Knight . Attack . Special
Level .. Bonus .. Abilities
5-6 .... +3 ..... Holy, divine focus
7 ...... +3 ..... Flaming burst, spell resistance
8-9 .... +4 ..... Dispel magic, summon sword
10 ..... +5 ..... Lawful, touch attack

Holy: as per holy weapon enhancement.
Divine focus: sword acts as the Mithril Knight's divine focus.
Flaming burst: only the fiery explosion, not the flaming.
Spell resistance: sword provides SR 10 + Mithril Knight (not Paladin) levels when wielded. The source says "in a 15-foot radius," but it seems silly to grant SR to enemies and too powerful to grant it to all friends within 15 feet.
Dispel magic: standard action to cast within a 5' radius at Paladin + Mithril Knight class level. That, too, seems silly as it will affect the Knight more frequently than any enemy. It is inconsistent that the Paladin levels are counted.
Summon sword: once per day as a move-equivalent action the sword can be summoned "as an act of will." If in the possession of an outsider, or in an area warded against teleportation and planar travel, this ability fails.
Lawful: as per lawful weapon enhancement.
Touch attack: smite evil used with the sword is a touch attack.​

Righteous Aura: At 7th level the Mithril Knight receives +2 sacred bonus to AC and saves against evil creatures, mental control, and summoned or conjured creatures. In addtion, her holy beacons have double the normal range, and other Paladins and Mithril Knights will see it at 2x the normal chances in poor visibility.

 

[Darklone]

Do the math.

6th level Barbarian: 2 + 2 (14 Wis) + 2 (Iron Will) + 2 (Rage) = +8
6th level Paladin: 2 + 1 (12 Wis) + 4 (18 Cha) = +7

RC, Thanee surely would agree with your math... but usually the paladins I see have a higher or the same Wisdom as the barbarians (after all the barbarians don't need it for spellcasting). I do agree though that a barbarian does not have so many attributes to raise and might therefore end up with higher Wisdom.

And I didn't see more barbarians with Iron Will than paladins... Did you? Strange. I thought both classes have enough problems where to put their few feats.

Anyone else had more barbarians take Iron Will than paladins? Poll time?