Which Prc for the Paladin?

[Endur]

Oh please. I've never seen a party that had a Barbarian with a higher wisdom than the party Paladin.

Most Barbarians that I've seen in point buy campaigns have wisdom 8. Most Paladins have wisdom 12-14 for spellcasting purposes.

I have seen Barbarians with Iron Will. But more often I see barbarians with cleave feats and weapon feats.

In response to the main question, I'd say stay away from PRCs. Just play a Paladin to high level.

Do the math.
6th level Barbarian: 2 + 2 (14 Wis) + 2 (Iron Will) + 2 (Rage) = +8
6th level Paladin: 2 + 1 (12 Wis) + 4 (18 Cha) = +7

 

[reapersaurus]

OK, this one's more powerful than I thought.

Yeah, for a Paladin PrC it's powerful.

Compared to a Wizard or Sorcerer PrC, it's not really too bad.

Entrance costs:
1/3rd of the Paladin's feats, and 100% of the Paladin's skillpoints by class.
He gains:
One feat (Leadership), +2 to AC and saves vs evil (that's basically equivalent to a racial benefit, like the elves and dwarves get), and the Sword. (I actually think the Sword is such a good idea, it should be added to the Paladin class as a class ability, actually giving the Paladin something at higher levels)

The sword is almost the entire benefit of 10 levels of the class, so I'd hope it would be worth it.
I think the PrC is worth it, if your Paladin has a Crafting Arms aspect of his character.
More PrC's like the Mithral Knight would be a welcome choice for the Paladin player to provide flexibility and flavor at mid and high levels.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

RC, Thanee surely would agree with your math... but usually the paladins I see have a higher or the same Wisdom as the barbarians (after all the barbarians don't need it for spellcasting). I do agree though that a barbarian does not have so many attributes to raise and might therefore end up with higher Wisdom.

And I didn't see more barbarians with Iron Will than paladins... Did you? Strange. I thought both classes have enough problems where to put their few feats.

Anyone else had more barbarians take Iron Will than paladins? Poll time?

My point is if Thanee is going to assert that defensive=powerful then using a typical Barbarian build as the point for comparison is ludicrous. One who agrees with her philosophy can build a Barbarian that is the equal the Paladin in overall defense while having an edge on offense as well.

With fewer stats to serve, a defensive-minded Barbarian can easily have a better Str, Wis, Dex, AND Con, pick up Iron Will, and still have more HPs and better offensive punch (at least while Raging).

The Paladin will eventually pull away at very high levels once the Cha stat gets extremely high. But IMNSHO this edge is nonexistent at low or middle levels where most real campaign time happens.

 

[Thanee]

If you compare like this, the Paladin would have Iron Will as well!

And I wasn't talking about low levels (6th), but rather higher levels!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Olive]

I think we can all agree that you need to compare like with like for the saves.

Anyway, reapersaurus, I think you're asking for too much to be honest.

The typical wizard PrC gives full spellcasting progression. The other main aspects fo the class are bonus feats and the familiar.

You say that a Paladin PrC needs to give all the aspects of the class. I'm not sure there are any PrCs which give say half the aspects of the paladin class myself, but thatdoesn't hange the fact that a PrC needs to give up something! The mithral knoght doesn't even need to give up anything particulalry useful in pre-reqs!

But the Book of Exalted Deeds, due out in the next couple of weeks might give you something better for your needs...

 

[The Souljourner]

How can you possibly say that Templar and Hospitaler aren't awesome PrCs? They both get great abilities and are pretty much just plain better than levels of paladin. Hospitaler is better for clerics, it's true, since the spellcasting progression is not as useful for a paladin, but still, the only thing he loses is a couple effective cleric levels for turn undead and his mount, neither of which is too bad, considering he can take two domains and gets bonus fightery feats.

And templar... sheesh! how awesome is that class?

-The Souljourner

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

If you compare like this, the Paladin would have Iron Will as well!

And I wasn't talking about low levels (6th), but rather higher levels!

I will respectfully disagree.

Even if the Paladin is virtually untouchable, doing, say, d8+2 (plus whatever magical bonuses) per round does not add up to much at high levels; a Paladin must spend feats on offense or her contribution is pathetic.

A Barbarian does not need to spend any feats on offense and can still dish out respectable damage; spending feats purely on defense is a viable strategy. So, yes, I do think it is fair to give the Barbarian Iron Will and not the Paladin.

The Paladin does look pretty good at very high levels. But at these levels your original contention is incorrect by your own standards. The Paladin is not the most "powerful" (defensive) fighter class. The Monk is.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

You say that a Paladin PrC needs to give all the aspects of the class. I'm not sure there are any PrCs which give say half the aspects of the paladin class myself, but thatdoesn't hange the fact that a PrC needs to give up something! The mithral knoght doesn't even need to give up anything particulalry useful in pre-reqs!

The Paladin needs to give up 8 ranks for Craft and 5 ranks Religion to be a Mithral Knight. That is a steeper cost than most PrCs. I would rather "waste" a Feat for Toughness or Great Fortitude than 8 skill points for Craft.

What do those skill point cost the Paladin? In combat, her Ride skill is so low that it takes away the benefit of the Mounted Combat feat and the Spirited Charge chain is impractical because she will fall off her horse when taking any damage. For roleplaying, it takes aways the option of getting another +7 to Diplomacy plus other skills (3 ranks Diplomacy + 5 ranks Sense Motive + 5 ranks Knowledge: Nobility).

In summary, the Paladin either sacrifices competence on a horse or an opportunity for deliciously potent roleplaying skills. Or both.

That does not look like a small cost to me.

 

[Nightfall]

Grump is correct. You want some really kick ass paladins, go Silver Knight, Iron Knight, Gold Knight or the soon to be revised Mithril Knight.

Also wait and see what PG: Paladins and Monks has in store.

 

[Ketjak]

Grump is correct. You want some really kick ass paladins, go Silver Knight, Iron Knight, Gold Knight or the soon to be revised Mithril Knight.

Also wait and see what PG: Paladins and Monks has in store.

What's the low-down on the Mithril Knight revision? How is it different from the one from the original Mithril book?