Which PrCl would you never want in your game? (part 1 - DMG)

[Saeviomagy]

Compared to the oxymoron "prestige classes" they're orders and orders and orders of magnitude better.
PrC are the godzilla's of imbalance. Never before have characters managed 10 trillion damage per hit for instance (hulking hurler).

Just so you know - Hulking hurler is possible without PrCs. In fact the only necessary component is the rule from complete warrior that tells you how to work out the damage from an improvised weapon, because it makes weapon damage scale exponentially with carry capacity.

If you remove that rule, and replace it with, say, simply scaling a club to the appropriate size, all is well again.

As for the "I'm an elf, so I win" kits? I think it's probably called bladesinger.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Or you use your double ability to craft items to make up the difference. Oh wait, that requires you to understand the rules, which you don't.

Here's your argument in a nutshell Storm Raven:
The caster and cohort need to equip each other with twice (2) the gear.
They both take crafting feats to get discounts on their money for XP.
They're not lower level, ever, for doing this so maintain their caster level advantage.
The MT never takes a crafting feat, doesn't happen to get scribe scroll for free, and is all and all a complete and utter moron.
Do you see any glaring mistakes here Storm Raven? Hmm...? None?

Then your party is comprised of pretty dumb people. QED.

No it's just the monsters are smart. Weird isn't it? Smart monsters and all?

Plus, given the way magic items scale, a pair of cloaks of resistance +3 cost about the same as the same as a single cloak of resistance +4. Add in the double crafting capability, and the cost of two cloaks of resistance +4 is actually less for the single classed caster plus his cohort.

Let's see, just because you deserve it. I craft a cloak +4. He crafts a cloak +4. We spend as much as a cloak +4. We lose XP. It is somehow, by Storm Raven logic alone, actually less cost for the single class caster and his cohort. 1+1 = X where X is <2.
Yes.... it's all becomes clear after the mushrooms... all da funny num'bhers...

Read the crafting rules sometime. You will find them illuminating.

Oh that comment's hilarious.

Take a single classed wizard. He's, say, 11th level, able to cast 6th level spells. He has a cleric cohort, who it turns out by the rules (see page 106 of the 3.5 DMG) can be no more than 9th level, and thus able to cast 5th level spells.

Or we could choose the level out of every two where the gap isn't so big.
Like say 12th level.
Then you've got an MT with 5th/5th and his cohort with 4th/4th versus your 6th/5th.
GET IT? It's not too hard

 

[DungeonMaster]

Yes, getting infinite amounts of 30,000 gp items is always easy.

No. All he needs is 3 of them to negate any caster level gap. At best.

By the time a MT gets to a caster level, the spells have lost much of their punch, as he is facing more powerful opponents.

You know little about the game system or the spell system by saying that. Your wizard isn't only powerful because of his most powerful spell - he's powerful because of all the lower-level magic he can also cast. A flesh to stone spell is better than a polymorph other (or baleful for 3.5). But often a polymorph spell works quite well enough. Flesh to stone is better because it has larger scope. If you have more lower-level spells you have larger scope in your repertoire.
Likewise his magic isn't "outdated" all the time. There are many cross-over spells that are in both arcane and divine classes but at different levels. An MT will be able to plane-shift earlier than a single classed wizard. When the wizard gets lesser planar binding the MT has lesser planar ally. Same for true seeing and a host of other imminently useful and powerful spells. Go read your book.

And your caster level is 9th, and the single classed caster is 12th. Try overcoming spell resistance (which is pretty common at that stage of a campaign) when you are losing three caster levels. Watch your spells get dispelled with ease by your opponents! Fun!

Puh-lease. I can cope with 15% more dispelled spells when I have 2x the raw number.
That's just a caster level argument. You don't have anything left to offer.

Using the MT, you can never get to 9th/9th level spell casting ability. Perhaps you would know this if you read the rules. Combined with other stuff, maybe, but we aren't talking about "other stuff" we are talking about the MT. "The MT class is broken when you add other non-core stuff" isn't an argument that's any better than "the fighter class is broken when you add other non-core stuff".

Oh I get it. The MT isn't broken because it's supposed to "stop" at level 10? I guess you had better go tell the designers that. They've taken a completely different tangent my friend... Seems like you were wrong.

 

[DungeonMaster]

And that would be just as true if you were a single classed rogue instead of a rogue/assassin.

Because a single classed rogue can cast modify memory? and hide in plain sight and do a death attack? Really?
This is getting old real fast.

I believe someone hasn't really compared his options. An assassin has about the same number of options as a single classed rogue. Different options to be sure, but anout the same array, and at about the same power level.

Nice hollistic grades you're giving out there. Bolded part is um completely wrong. Actually the whole text is but the bolded part moreso.

Some prestige classes give more than they take.
*snip*
And taking mutiple PrCs usually doesn't end up with any more overall power than just taking one, or none.

Oh boy. 1+1 strikes again. I'm tired of this "debate".

 

[Storm Raven]

Here's your pathetic little argument in a nutshell Storm Raven:
The caster and cohort need to equip each other with twice (2) the gear.
They both take crafting feats to get discounts on their money for XP.
They're not lower level, ever, for doing this so maintain their caster level advantage.
The MT never takes a crafting feat, doesn't happen to get scribe scroll for free, and is all and all a complete and utter moron.
Do you see any glaring mistakes here Storm Raven? Hmm...? None?

In general, the XP hit from crafting is small enough that it will never make a difference to total character level. And it will never make a whit of difference to the cohort (that would be the RtFM part). Perhaps if you knew the rules you are arguing about, you might be able to come up with a cogent argument.

Plus, the cohort has a whole array of feat slots he can use, to take item crafting feats so the single classed caster and cohort can craft a wider array of items than the single classed caster, meaning you can get the crafting discount in cash on a more significant number of your items.

No it's just the monsters are smart. Weird isn't it? Smart monsters and all?

It sounds like you have dumb players, who don't know how to deal with their opponents effectively.

Let's see, just because you deserve it. I craft a cloak +4. He crafts a cloak +4. We spend as much as a cloak +4. We lose XP. It is somehow, by Storm Raven logic alone, actually less cost for the single class caster and his cohort. 1+1 = X where X is <2.
Yes.... it's all becomes clear after the mushrooms... all da funny num'bhers...

And the cohort crafts a cloak +4, and it effectively doesn't cost him any experience points. And given that the single MT character, at say, 12th level, has 4 feats to spend, while the single classed wizard character plus his cleric cohort has a a combined 7 feats (less one for Leadership), plus two more wizard bonus feats the MT doesn't have, the single classed character and his cohort have access to a greater variety of item crafting feats. The MT may not even have enough feat slots available to take Craft Wondrous Item and be able to craft the cloak to begin with. he certainly won't have that plus Craft Wand, Craft Staff, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, and Brew Potion.

Oh that comment's hilarious.

It might be, if your grasp of the rules wasn't so pathetic.

Or we could choose the level out of every two where the gap isn't so big.
Like say 12th level.
Then you've got an MT with 5th/5th and his cohort with 4th/4th versus your 6th/5th.
GET IT? It's not too hard

And now, you, the MT, have 1 5th level wizard spell, and 1+1 5th level cleric spells. Your single classed wizard friend, however, has 2 6th level spells, and 3 5th level spells.

Your MT cohort has 1 4th level wizard spell, and 1+1 4th level cleric spells. The wizard's single classed clerical cohort has 2+1 5th level spells, and 3+1 4th level spells.

You cap out at 5th level. The wizard and his cohort have 1 more 5th level clerical spell than you, and 2 more 5th level wizard spells. Plus they have 2 6th level spells. How is it that being able to cast 3 fewer 5th level spells and 2 fewer 6th level spells makes your argument make any more sense than it has so far?

You just don't understand how weak your "argument" (to dignify the stream of nonsense words that are coming from your keyboard) actually is when you stack it up against reality.

 

[Nuclear Platypus]

"Assassination is the highest form of public service." -- Chiun

I actually voted all of 'em, except for the Arcane Trickster.

Arcane Archer, Dwarven Defender - Why always with the frellin' elves n dwarves? Show the other races some love!

Assassin - good idea but why evil? Remo and Chiun sold that sacred cow a while back.

As for the rest, most just don't grab me. They're just kinda 'blah'. Eventually I'll get a 'been there, done that, got the shirt' with the Trickster but at least its something more original.

 

[Storm Raven]

No. All he needs is 3 of them to negate any caster level gap. At best.

So, 90,000 gp is pocket change to be hand waived away? Using the standard assumptions, characters don't even see that much total wealth until they are 12th level. Your argument doesn't wash.

You know very very little about the game system or the game. Your wizard isn't only powerful because of his most powerful spell - he's powerful because of all the lower-level magic he can also cast. A flesh to stone spell is better than a polymorph other (or baleful for 3.5). But often a polymorph spell works quite well enough. Flesh to stone is better because it has larger scope. If you have more lower-level spells you have larger scope in your repertoire.

And the clerical cohort more than makes up for the difference in the lower level spells that the MT can cast, because he can cast as many or more equal level clerical spells as the MT at every caster level.

Likewise his magic isn't "outdated" all the time. There are many cross-over spells that are in both arcane and divine classes but at different levels. An MT will be able to plane-shift earlier than a single classed wizard. When the wizard gets lesser planar binding the MT has lesser planar ally. Same for true seeing and a host of other imminently useful and powerful spells. Go read your book.

And? Being able to cast an array of utility spells makes him more powerful than someone who can do that and more? Especially since he has his clerical cohort with him who can cast spells better than the MT? I'm not seeing where you are making sense.

Puh-lease. I can cope with 15% more dispelled spells when I have 2x the raw number.
That's just a caster level argument. You don't have anything left to offer.

But you don't have "2x the raw number". You actually have fewer spells than a wizard + cohort.

Oh I get it. The MT isn't broken because it's supposed to "stop" at level 10? I guess you had better go tell the designers that. They've taken a completely different tangent my friend... Seems like you were wrong.

The MT is written as a 10 level class. Perhaps you should evaluate it based on what is written, not what you think it might be able to do. In any even, even if you do use various other classes to get to 9th/9th spellcaster progression, the MT is still behind. Work out the spells available numbers, if you can figure out how to open the books to begin with. The single classed caster always has many more spellls available than the MT.

 

[Storm Raven]

Because a single classed rogue can cast modify memory? and hide in plain sight and do a death attack? Really?

He doesn't need to. He has 40 more skill points to spend on jacking up his Bluff skill, his Hide skill, and so on. He has slippery mind, or crippling strike, or opportunist, or some other special ability that is more than equal to the difficult to set up (3 rounds is an eternity most of the time), and difficult to pull off death attack

This is getting old real fast.

Yeah, your inability to grasp simple rules is tiring.

Nice hollistic grades you're giving out there. Bolded part is um completely wrong. Actually the whole text is but the bolded part moreso.

Well, it comes from actually reading the book, which you, by your own admission. haven't bothered to do. You see, 40 skill points is a huge gap, the rogue special abilities compare quite well to the assassin's abilities, and so on. If you did bother to read the books and pay attention, you might notice that.

Oh boy. 1+1 strikes again. I'm tired of this "debate".

Given that you haven't made an argument that holds water yet, I'm not surprised. Displaying your lack of understanding so publicly must be wearing on you.

 

[Storm Raven]

Assassin - good idea but why evil? Remo and Chiun sold that sacred cow a while back.

Do what I did with the class: tie it to a specific group. The entrance requirements kind of make it seem like it should be. Make "other aligned assassins" straight rogues, or members of other class combinations, or other PrCs.

 

[DungeonMaster]

In general, the XP hit from crafting is small enough that it will never make a difference to total character level.
And it will never make a whit of difference to the cohort (that would be the RtFM part).

Sure, of course not. You're trying to make up twice, 2, that number I keep repeating add-nauseum that you're just not getting for reasons unknown, 2 times the gear and not losing significant XP. My we're all numbers tonight aren't we? 88 000 GP for 12th level and that's 3520 XP a completely insignifican hit in XP .

It sounds like you have dumb players, who don't know how to deal with their opponents effectively.

YEP. Next time an invisible dragon surprises them, because they can cast spells too you know, and breathes on them I'll say they're dumb. Your not making a good case for yourself...

And the cohort crafts a cloak +4, and it effectively doesn't cost him any experience points.

How are you gaining money out of deal. You said it will cost less. My maths skillz ar'nt tha god, I dinna under'fand how youse mak more frum (1+1)/2 > 1.
Jesus this is hopeless.

And now, you, the MT, have 1 5th level wizard spell, and 1+1 5th level cleric spells. Your single classed wizard friend, however, has 2 6th level spells, and 3 5th level spells.

Oh I see. The game is only 2 rounds long every day. Well I guess I'll have to duck out for those 2 rounds, you know being out-classed and all.
Why praytell did you stop there?
Your wizard has 4 4th level spells and the MT has 5. You get 4 3rd level spells and the MT has 6. And bonus spells too! Oh you only get one bonus spell pool. Too bad.
And my MT would never think of becoming a specialist either. Not with a whole frigging spell pool of magic on the other side.

You just don't understand how weak your "argument" (to dignify the stream of nonsense words that are coming from your keyboard) actually is when you stack it up against reality.

I won't dignify that with reply and honestly your tone is not becoming of someone who repeatedly contradicts himself from one paragraph to the next and has found unique formula for 1+1.