Which PrCl would you never want in your game? (part 1 - DMG)

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

The only disturbing thing is that kits were much more balanced and flavorful than PrC

You have got to be kidding me.

You are the only person I have ever, ever seen or read who has tried to argue that kits are a "balanced" system.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

You have got to be kidding me.

You are the only person I have ever, ever seen or read who has tried to argue that kits are a "balanced" system.

I fear he means it.

 

[BullMarkOne]

Dragon Disciples = teh suck

Just say no to half-dragons!

 

[DungeonMaster]

You have got to be kidding me.
You are the only person I have ever, ever seen or read who has tried to argue that kits are a "balanced" system.

Compared to the oxymoron "prestige classes" they're orders and orders and orders of magnitude better.
PrC are the godzilla's of imbalance. Never before have characters managed 10 trillion damage per hit for instance (hulking hurler).

 

[DungeonMaster]

Saying "the Mystic Theurge can spend thousands of gold pieces on something the single classed caster doesn't need to help make up the difference in their abilities" doesn't really help your argument.

It does when the single class + cohort can't afford enough gear to adventure properly.

All things being equal, the non-MT won't have to drain his cash resources to obtein the same effect that the MT can get by buying expensive theings, and thus will be able to buy other things, or even the same things, and end up ahead of the MT.

This makes no sense. The PC + cohort needs to have 2 sets of gear. Get it? 2. The number 2. It's twice as much as 1. You cannot get more out of less. Ok? If you want your cohort to survive he's going to need things like armor, weapons, cloaks of resistance, luckstones, and so forth. Unless you like raising him a lot. That or your own gear is much weaker.

And this is a problem because? Are you both likely to get caught in lots of the same AoE spells? I find that parties facing AoE capable opponents tend to spread out and minimize their multiple exposure. Having an extra body is always more helpful than not.

I find area of effect spells tend to hit large numbers of the party. That's why AoE spells and effects are actually useful, that's their point. Get it? You use AoE spells because, beleive it or not, you can often manage to hit multiple things with them. Funny that?
Saying people spread out after being smashed around a bit isn't wrong. Saying that you're never going to get caught by them is. You will. It happens. All the time. Part of the game.

No, it's not. Effectively, if the cohort has their own item creation capabilities, then you get the items he makes for half the cost you would have otherwise paid.

Look guy, I don't understand how you're having so many problems with the concept of twice the resource expenditure. You're not getting twice the cash for the same monsters as the lone MT if you're a PC+cohort.

Someone hasn't read the 3.5e rules very well. Go back and brush up on them, then come back with an actual argument.

I don't actually like the 3.5 rules - and I didn't bother to look it up.

"I can come up with a corner case that usually doesn't make much difference". Gosh, you are convincing.

Sounds like someone's having trouble coming up with actual arguments...

When he's 14th level. His single classed buddy has been able to cast one or the other of those spells for three levels now. I'm sure he's very impressed that the MT has finally caught up.

Depends on how far non-core you go and how high level. You can easily use precocious apprentice to make the level gap 1 and the arcane heirophant or other similarly broken and stackable half-half caster PrC.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

I don't actually like the 3.5 rules - and I didn't bother to look it up.

I'm not sure there's much I can say to this.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Thank you Particle_Man for keeping your head about you, unlike others...

Metamagic Rods of Quicken are cheap enough for the Sorceror and Cohort to both have them, by the time the MT leaves "the suck zone". Now they are still casting spells twice as fast.

Sorcerors can't use quicken to effect.
My bad about splitting XP in 3.5.

The MT can take leadership, but now is falling far behind in feats, since he also had to take practiced spellcaster (probably twice). If we play the "useful feat game" the MT falls behind.

No, no he doesn't need to take "practiced spellcaster". He can just stack orange ioun stones. They're unnamed bonuses to caster level, they stack.

I like Contingency:Heal, but there are other arcane Contingencies that can also be either nasty or defensive. Besides, the cohort cleric can cast shield other on my sorceror. That is one option the MT doesn't have.

It's an option, but keep in mind if you're both hit by AoE spells and your cohort is likely dead. Regardless the MT can do so many things the others can't it's not even funny. Greater glyphs of warding with arcane spells, contingencies with diving spells, stacking personal range buffs like blink and sanctuary, spectral hand and healing spells or inflict, etc...

And don't forget, the sorceror (or wizard) has ready access to more higher level spells. Including a whole spell level that the MT doesn't have access to. So the first spell cast is more likely to be more deadly, and require a higher save DC.

That's only true in a certain level range and the MT can always take precocious apprentice to make the gap only 1 level.

And speaking of "the suck zone", don't forget that the sorceror is useful up to 6th level, but the 3rd level arcane/ 3rd level divine guy is going to be the spear carrier at that point. The "suck zone" doesn't go away for quite a while after this, although the feat practiced spellcaster helps a lot.

The 6th level sorceror has how many 3rd level spells? 3 or 4 castable per day?
Beyond that he's the same as the MT, except he has less 2nd level magic and less variety in his spells.
Buy a wand of a 3rd level spell.

So I can see how the MT might be slightly below a sorceror or wizard with cleric cohort, given intelligent spell choice by the MT. But I cannot see it as overpowered. Far from banning it, I would commend someone who took it for deciding to "take the hit" to his character's power.

I don't think 9th/9th spellcasting ability is "taking a hit".
Or even at level 12 when you've got 6th level magic and the MT (assuming the least broken "build") has 5/5.

 

[DungeonMaster]

I'm not sure there's much I can say to this.

Then don't?

Confucious says: man who lives in glass house needs to change in basement.
Work on that one for awhile if it's less mystifying then someone disliking 3.5.
Sigh...

 

[Nifft]

1/ No, no he doesn't need to take "practiced spellcaster". He can just stack orange ioun stones. They're unnamed bonuses to caster level, they stack.

2/ That's only true in a certain level range and the MT can always take precocious apprentice to make the gap only 1 level.

1/ Bonuses from the same source do not stack. Even unnamed ones.

2/ That trick does not work.

-- N

 

[DungeonMaster]

1/ Bonuses from the same source do not stack. Even unnamed ones.

That only applies to spells by the book. If you really care, use 3.5 crafting rules to make rings, boots or whatever you want with the same property.

2/ That trick does not work.

By the book it does.