Which PrCl would you never want in your game? (part 1 - DMG)

[DungeonMaster]

This was about Mystic Theurges, and no one from the "Mystic Theurges are too powerful" side has ever answered it on any thread that I have seen on any messageboard. Given that MT's need the feat Practiced Spellcaster to up their effective caster level (so none of that "you are a feat behind" argument), if you ban MT's because they are "too powerful", do you also ban the Leadership feat?

Leadership is an optional feat to begin with and your cohort is by no means guaranteed to be your level or even 2 levels lower.

There are tons of spells that have personal range in the game.
An MT can merely bring up an anti-life shell and then cast without fear of mellee.
The wizard with the cleric cohort must use another tactic or use two spells and particular items (spell storing for instance).
If you are both being threatened by spells, you need 2 spell resistance spells to cover both of you, while the MT needs only one.
You also need twice the gear, unless you keep your cohort naked of magic items that hurts a lot. The MT needs only one set of gear.
Even simple things like blinking, dimension door, spectral hand for touch-range spells, require much more effort or higher level magic to approximate with 2 casters rather than the ungodly all-in-one caster.

Having both arcane and divine magic isn't balanced - it has never been. Not in 2nd edition, not in 3rd. That's why "a level for a level" multiclassing exists.
It's not even particularly well balanced for monsters, let alone PCs.

 

[Twiggly the Gnome]

Duelist: Ok, *this* one just is soooooooo mechanically weak. I mean it takes a lot for a class to be so weak that it makes Swashbuckler look like a great alternative.

The bad thing about the Duelist is that they designed the Swashbuckler to be a "feeder" class to it. So instead of one good lightly armored finesse fighting class, you have two half baked ones.

I voted for Red Wizard on the general principle that if your going to have a setting specific element in a core book, it should be Greyhawk based.

 

[Particle_Man]

Leadership is an optional feat to begin with and your cohort is by no means guaranteed to be your level or even 2 levels lower.

There are tons of spells that have personal range in the game.
An MT can merely bring up an anti-life shell and then cast without fear of mellee.
The wizard with the cleric cohort must use another tactic or use two spells and particular items (spell storing for instance).
If you are both being threatened by spells, you need 2 spell resistance spells to cover both of you, while the MT needs only one.
You also need twice the gear, unless you keep your cohort naked of magic items that hurts a lot. The MT needs only one set of gear.
Even simple things like blinking, dimension door, spectral hand for touch-range spells, require much more effort or higher level magic to approximate with 2 casters rather than the ungodly all-in-one caster.

Having both arcane and divine magic isn't balanced - it has never been. Not in 2nd edition, not in 3rd. That's why "a level for a level" multiclassing exists.
It's not even particularly well balanced for monsters, let alone PCs.

Edit: I just want to say that tho' I disagree, I appreciate that you at least tried to answer my point. But look below for my refutation.

The guy with leadership, combined with cohort, is effectively casting spells twice as fast as your MT. The cohort, having his own chain of feats, can make his own magic items, if it comes down to it. In addition, they can look out for each other (effectively, twice the hit points). If one gets taken down, the other can still fight on or get away to get help.

A few parlour tricks with lower level spells being mixed from arcane and divine does not match the higher level devastation of a single classed caster, with cohort. The sorceror with high chr and a cleric cohort will OWN an MT.

 

[DungeonMaster]

The guy with leadership, combined with cohort, is effectively casting spells twice as fast as your MT.

No he isn't. If you have more money you can afford items like metamagic rods of quicken.
And at many points it's irrelevant as survival is more important. Whether you cast one spell or 2 is largely irrelevant when the dragon breaths on you and you need protection from energy on, or in the case of the cohort + leader both need it on.

The cohort, having his own chain of feats, can make his own magic items, if it comes down to it.

It's still out of your own cash. One way or another you're splitting up resources not the least of which is XP. You're trying to compare groups with disparate XP levels.

In addition, they can look out for each other (effectively, twice the hit points). If one gets taken down, the other can still fight on or get away to get help.

It's not effectively twice the hp if you're targeted with an area-effect. It likewise doesn't mean anything if you're targeted with a save-or-die - what matters is your save and the MT will have a better save than the single-class characters guaranteed from both multiclassing and better overall gear.
The MT can do things like contingency:heal, which isn't a parlor trick.

And the MT can take leadership too you know - and get another MT.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Red Wizard - too FR for my tastes.

Assassin - well sort of, I renamed it. Assassin (from the Mongoose Power Class series) is a base class in my game, the DMG guys are Arcane Assassins or some such (they are there, but I have never used them...)

Dragon Disciple... not on your life. I don't have half dragons either.

The Auld Grump

 

[CRGreathouse]

Ya lost me.

So, the class is in fact not tied to the outer planes at all, despite the fact that half of its class abilities are all about mastery of certain types of extraplanar terrain?

The class has the option, at later levels, to take planar abilities. The first five levels can't be planar, and the next five may be but need not be. The majority of horizon walkers won't have any planar abilities at all -- and even those who do will have just a few. Even the most dedicated plane traveller will only have half of his abilities in planar mastery, and even then only once he's 10th level.

If I was making a character for a game with lots of planar travel I'd ignore the hoison walker as too mundane and Material Plane-based, taking a prestige class from the Manual of the Planes or Planar Handbook instead.

 

[Particle_Man]

No he isn't. If you have more money you can afford items like metamagic rods of quicken.

It's still out of your own cash. One way or another you're splitting up resources not the least of which is XP. You're trying to compare groups with disparate XP levels.

And the MT can take leadership too you know - and get another MT.

I see some of your points, but still think the MT falls behind. To address the above points, however: Metamagic Rods of Quicken are cheap enough for the Sorceror and Cohort to both have them, by the time the MT leaves "the suck zone". Now they are still casting spells twice as fast.

Why am I splitting XP? In 3.5 the cohort doesn't drain XP from the party or the main player, and the cohort can contribute his own XP to his own items.

The MT can take leadership, but now is falling far behind in feats, since he also had to take practiced spellcaster (probably twice). If we play the "useful feat game" the MT falls behind. Also, the arcane single caster can beef up the familiar with feats, if he is so inclined.

I like Contingency:Heal, but there are other arcane Contingencies that can also be either nasty or defensive. Besides, the cohort cleric can cast shield other on my sorceror. That is one option the MT doesn't have.

Also, many area of effect spells/etc. have crap for areas. If the party is reasonably spread out, they won't all get caught.

And don't forget, the sorceror (or wizard) has ready access to more higher level spells. Including a whole spell level that the MT doesn't have access to. So the first spell cast is more likely to be more deadly, and require a higher save DC.

And speaking of "the suck zone", don't forget that the sorceror is useful up to 6th level, but the 3rd level arcane/ 3rd level divine guy is going to be the spear carrier at that point. The "suck zone" doesn't go away for quite a while after this, although the feat practiced spellcaster helps a lot.

So I can see how the MT might be slightly below a sorceror or wizard with cleric cohort, given intelligent spell choice by the MT. But I cannot see it as overpowered. Far from banning it, I would commend someone who took it for deciding to "take the hit" to his character's power.

 

[Particle_Man]

Maybe the horizon walker can be looked at another way:


Since some of these powers are magical, perhaps some outer planar beings become interested in the HW, and are "Tempting" him into their "home turf" for benign/malign reasons.

So reverse the causality. Instead of the walker first getting to the outer plane and then getting the power, he is first granted powers, and thus tempted to then travel to the other planes. Like "I have fire resistance? Hmmm...and there is this mysterious letter saying that there are great magical jewels in the castle of X, in the elemental plane of fire..."

Come to think of it, the terrain powers could work the same way. "In a dream, you are visited by a goddess who tells you to travel to the Desert of Y and find the lost relic of her son. You are granted the great gift of not tiring in your sacred task."

Doesn't have to be that way, but just one way to reconcile the powers with the idea of planar/terrain travel.

Personally, I liked the idea of a Ranger (favored enemy dragon)/Horizon Walker (desert as first choice) who FOCUSED on hunting blue dragons (putting the two together). But that is kinda level 1 HW stuff, so either he has to broaden his interests fast (more HW) or keep up with the ranger stuff (or cheese out a bit with barbarian).

 

[Storm Raven]

I'm not so sure. Kits died in the transition from 2nd to 3rd so there's hope that "prestige classes" likewise get their ass booted in 4th.

Besides selling copies of the Player's Handbook, what makes the most money for WotC? Selling books that feature new PrCs. They are ahuge cash cow for WotC, and many people really like them, and would want them (more, it seems, than liked kits). So, as I said, my best educated guess: get used to disappontment.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I'm not so sure. Kits died in the transition from 2nd to 3rd so there's hope that "prestige classes" likewise get their ass booted in 4th.

Actually, kits didn't die. They got transformed into an inherently superior version: Prestige Classes. Now there is a mechanical loss (level) for a mechanical benefit (sweet powers). And they don't require you to make a new character to take advantage of them.

In 2e, Red Wizard might've been a Wizard kit. Now, it's a PrC, and it is much more interesting as a PrC than it ever could've been as a kit, because it can contain powerful and unique abilities, an entire menu of them, that can be payed for with more penalties than "Good-aligned creatures are hostile to you, ggrrrr".

The only disturbing thing is that kits were much more balanced and flavorful than PrC so the trend would be that things get worse, not better as time goes forward. But that's judging off of a single data point.

.....Wow.